Because the ‘numbers’ that neoliberals have decided are the indicators of a “good” economy mean almost nothing to, in all likely hood, 95% of Americans.
Measuring the right thing leads to inconvenient conclusions (age till retirement, income at retirement, income independence, buying power, home ownership, business ownership, union membership, etc.)
Bloody well hate the neoliberals. One was arguing with me on reddit that because people in Kenya are better off, compared to the 80s, I should stop complaining.
Like ok I am happy for the people of Kenya. I got nothing against them. So yeah good job. Now can my healthcare costs please go down? Because I am pretty confident that they can and the people of Kenya can also be doing well. One really doesn’t impact the other that much.
No, you see, because TVs have gotten consistently cheaper (they’re like the only thing to have done so), everything’s working!
And the main reason they’re cheaper is because all of them are data harvesting machines. What a fun world where even your habits are a commodity!
Like they even give a shit about Kenya. Just blatant manipulation.
I love that they chose a term to further muddy the waters between conservatives and liberals.
I hear neoliberal and I think, “huh, is the a new liberal?” Nope. It’s the exact fucking opposite.
That term isn’t new nor is it meant to muddy any waters. Liberals are not leftists.
That’s exactly what leftists are. The left is liberal. The right is conservative.
Outside the US, “liberal” often means “libertarian”, not leftist. The Liberals in the UK and in Australia are very pro-business. The leftist parties in both countries, and elsewhere, call themselves “Labor” not “Liberal”.
In the US, “neo-liberals” often refers to people who wanted to install pro-business regimes in other countries, like Iraq…
Whenever you see reference to neoliberalism or someone mentions ‘leftists’ relative to ‘liberals’ it is in context with classical liberalism.
The wiki page is a pretty good jumping off point to understand some of the distinctions and discourse.
No, the left is socialist, the center is liberal, the right is conservative
Fuck neoliberalism. Glad I found out what it was. It really highlights everything that is wrong with the American economy.
… because my purchasing power is much lower than two years ago and my wages aren’t remotely keeping up with profiteering inflation? Because I have to be very careful around Christmas to not overspend and I get to explain to the kids why there’s only a few presents under the tree? They’ll be okay with it, but as a person who has children to take care of it, it’s crushing to go backwards year to year in what you’re able to provide? Because a 3/4 full shopping cart today (not much meat) was $179 today? And we have a fixed rate mortgage! I can’t envision the pressures people who are renting or trying to buy a home right now are going through. Anyone saying “it’s all good out there!” can get fucked.
No kids to take care of, but my fridge just went out today. This spoiled most of the food in the fridge as I can’t pick up a new one until tomorrow, and the of a new fridge and restocking my fridge pretty much cancels Xmas gifts for the family. I feel bad every year because they get my wife and I all kinds of cool stuff and it seems like every year I’m stuck telling them, “Maybe I’ll be less broke next year” Not quite the same, I know, but it still makes me feel aweful…
Meanwhile the owner of my company just bought a 5th wheel camper trailer and hitch for his truck in June because he felt like going camping, and is having a 6 bedroom house built for his son on his ranch because his sons wife is having a baby.
This world is fucked for the working class truly.
This isn’t probably what you want to hear right now, but I’ve been much happier giving homemade gifts to family and friends. I found a couple of things people really enjoy that I make and they all look forward to it every year. For me, it’s pork jerky. That might not work for you because you need a dehydrator but I can post the recipe if you want. It’s a lot of work so no one ever makes it, but when they receive it for Christmas they know I put a lot of time and love in and I really think that’s what Christmas should be about. It’s really cheap… Mostly two or three large pork loins covers my entire Christmas list.
Other family members have started to do the same. My brother makes really good homemade caramel popcorn. My sister made some rum infusion to give out. Another sister even one time even made Dominoes somehow with resin.
If you are able to find time and energy to spread your love for your family and friends Christmas is a lot of fun.
This is a great idea! But I will have to go with something other than meat. A fair amount of my wife’s side of the family is vegetarian. I’m also not that great at cooking lol one of my thoughts this year was to do some of my stencil spraypaints on canvas, as I have a huge stock of canvases and spray paint I never used when I stopped doing it years ago. I just wish I had more time to create some stencils.
If it isn’t too late. Buy an absolute fuck ton of ice. It’ll keep the food cold enough.
Wait… All your food spoiled in a single day? Was your fridge made of cardboard? It should be able to remain cold for at least a day, probably 2-3.
It’s from 1986 and not insulated well. Between that and my wife keeping the thermostat and mordor temp, and opening the fridge for long periods of time not knowing it wasn’t working, it turned into a hotbox.
Dang, I was just thinking about how my mom got a raise years ago when I was still a kid and it practically changed our life. All of a sudden we were eating out more. All of a sudden we had nicer things. All of a sudden my mom wasn’t stressed anymore.
It’s sad to see how people are now experiencing the opposite of that. It’s sad they’re experiencing that when, in absolute terms, we are more productive than ever.
Greed really is the worst thing we face as a species in the modern age. It’s a shame so many people are gung-ho about supporting it.
The disparity in wealth needs to shrink instead of grow. Otherwise, these problems will only get worse over time.
I can’t believe how expensive thanksgiving shopping was this year. I hit nearly 200 dollars.
We hit $200 very easily just buying household essentials, it seems like. Heaven help us if we need paper towels, toilet paper, contact solution, the ‘cheap’ shampoo and conditioner, plus a few cleaning supplies all at the same time. $200 comes at you fast on those shopping days.
I feel like I have been seeing the same article once a month since 2007.
A. Unemployment numbers are basically a lie at this point. The only number that comes even close to representating the situation is the workforce participation rate. Question: what percent of people are employed? Answer: what percent of people are employed. It is simple as that. If you look at pretty much every month the US hits a new low. Over a third of the adult population did not earn $20 dollars last week. There was a slight trending down right before 2007 crash but not significant. A deep dive into the numbers shows that this is not the result of retirement, it is the result of prime working age males dropping out.
B. Who cares if inflation is low at this moment? That is like arguing that everything is fine the previous 5 minutes when a car crash happened 6 minutes ago.
Peices of garbage keep telling us that everything is fine when it fucking isnt
I really like that car crash analogy or whatever you want to call it. It isn’t like sudden positive changes in inflation or job numbers magically fixes QOL for people overnight. It can take weeks…months, maybe even years (maybe even never?)
This is it exactly. Positive changes in inflation mean prices aren’t going up as fast. They’re still going up. They’re never going to go down because businesses don’t charge less when the alternative is making more money. They only ever charge more with inflation.
Checks out. Not a huge change but a definite trend.
Source: https://www.bls.gov/charts/employment-situation/civilian-labor-force-participation-rate.htm
Corporate profits ≠ my wallet
Corporate profits <- your wallet
Because it’s a bullshit narrative. Cost of living keeps going up. But inflation doesn’t count rent, groceries, or gas.
Rent is going to go up as long as it’s able.
As soon as people have more money to spend, landlords increase rent.
Renting is one of the biggest scams this generation has convinced itself into falling for.
I wasn’t able to afford to buy a house until I was over 50 years old, it took a global pandemic, a complete shutdown of the economy, and working from home for multiple years to bank the cash to make it happen.
People don’t rent because they CHOOSE to.
How much was your house?
Listed for $374,000, but I had to bid up to $390,000 to get it.
Yeah, you didn’t have to spend anywhere near that much.
But you wanted to, so you did.
To buy a house where I live, that’s a bargain!
Yeah, there are plenty of other places you can live though.
This generation? Fucking Romans were complaining about high rent for shitty apartments over 2000 years ago. Don’t be a dumbass.
Right… and no generation since has ever seen the value of owning property, right? Lol.
Mark Twain was right. It’s easier to fool someone than to convince them they’d been fooled.
See how mad people get in this comment section when someone points out they’re being taken for a ride? One person even said they won’t get off the ride if it isn’t “easy.” Lol.
Supply and demand. You’re not exempt from them.
Quoting someone much smarter than you doesn’t enhance your unintelligible argument. It makes it dramatically worse.
Oh boy, we got one.
Right… and no generation since has ever seen the value of owning property, right? Lol.
Are you under the impression that modern renters are choosing to rent instead of own?
60% of Americans live paycheck to paycheck making saving for a down payment impossible for over half the country, and with rates being what they are, mortgages are expensive af.
People are renting because it’s the only way to live, not because they think it’s neat. People are getting upset at you not because you’re pointing out that rent is a scam, but because you’re implying it’s the fault of the victims
slaps forehead wait I can just buy a house? What a solution!! So easy!
I never said it would be easy.
Do you only do things if they are easy?
I make about $75k a year, but to afford a $700k house (which is a “reasonable” price) near my city (Seattle), I’d have to make $150k per year. The only affordable houses are two hours’ drive away, and there are no “starter” homes to buy. I can skrimp and save for the rest of my life (and I am). But unless I get a huge raise (and I’m already above the median national income), buying a house is impossible. Not just hard, economically impossible.
Have you tried just making more money?
Jeez, you poors are just so lazy.
(I really wish this weren’t needed, but I think it is) \s
I’m also in Seattle and it’s bad out here. I was looking at townhouses last year before the rates went up but couldn’t get a mortgage because of a limited amount of work experience since getting my second degree during the pandemic. I was actually surprised that I could have afforded a decent townhouse in like Edmonds or Shoreline until the rates shot up - going from 3.5% to 7% adds something like $1000 a month in interest on a $400k mortgage. Then I realized I have never lived alone before and wasn’t sure if buying a place was the best way to try that out lol. Average rent in Seattle right now though is like $2300-$2400 a month which is close to 50% of the take-home income of someone making $100,000 per year. It’s insane.
You are being sarcastic but a lot of people who are convinced they can’t afford it actually could afford to own the place they rent and have just never crunched the numbers.
Before the rate hike this was probably true, but most areas haven’t adjusted to people having about 100k less buying power.
lol yeah dude, I convinced myself to rent
I mean, you live in a major city so yeah.
You’re probably never going to leave major cities, nor are you ever going to own property in them.
Yeah. You convinced yourself to rent.
I live in rural Iowa wtf are you talking about? We rent out here too!
I actually am paying off my trailer, though, so someday I could maybe put this on a piece of rural property somewhere and do remote work or something? But like, I never chose this shit - I just stayed where I grew up and got a factory job when my neurosis and undiagnosed dysphoria caused me to flunk out of college. I guess I could go squat in the woods though lol
Its pretty insane we don’t invest in our cities anymore when they’re the powerhouse of the economy. Not to mention they’re a way better use of land than suburbs and rural living. You can find affordable places in Tokyo and so many other cities worldwide that dwarf ours in almost every metric. Cities really aren’t the problem, they are actually the potential solution if we change our policies around them and attempt to catch up with countries like Japan.
Hold on everyone, this 17 year old is gonna explain why we’re all idiots
For what it’s worth gas has come down quite a bit the last few weeks.
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Because those two metrics are meaningless for the average person.
Inflation is trending down… After it skyrocketed and is still way above affordable ranges.
Employment rates are high… But those jobs don’t pay living wages.
Go check how much savings the average American has, check what an average doctor’s visit costs, and then maybe you’ll understand the gloom.
Median figures are more accurate and scarier than average.
No one is asking for deflation. They’re asking for wages that don’t decrease every year due to inflation and companies not giving raises or giving raises so small that it’s still a pay decrease since it’s not keeping up with inflation.
Wages are now out pacing inflation. So it sounds like you’re saying your gloomy about the economy because the president hasnt come in and forced your boss to give you a raise, or hand you a different job with more pay.
Where are you that minimum wages are going up?
Oh, I thought we were talking about actual wages, not the minimum wage. I’m not even sure how that makes sense in the context.
Most of the places around me pay way less than the actual cost of living, like the average is maybe $12 an hour max but I’d say it’s more like $10. Cost of living estimates vary but for a single adult it’s often around $2500/month, which is far more than you’ll make working at almost anywhere here full time. Even worse, most establishments are actually choosing to short-staff themselves to save money, so most aren’t even looking to increase employment.
So you can work full time and still not have enough to just survive, then if you want to do university/trade school and aren’t elligible for e.g. HOPE then you could have to pick up 2 full time jobs and still somehow have the time/energy left to do college (which most people wouldn’t after that and would just drop out). Some people are able to live with family to reduce or eliminate the housing cost, and a few people are privileged enough to have their family pay for their whole college, but if that’s not the case you’re completely fucked.
And this is in suburban/rural Georgia. I can only imagine how shit it is for someone who can’t afford college, a car, whatever else in a shitty place like Texas or Florida.
One of the things that frustrates me the most about this site (and reddit but it seems even worse here) is the inability of people to follow the context.
The article is about how people, wide spread, are rating the economy as poor despite good economic data. The top level comment is talking about not wanting deflation, but rising wages so they don’t lose out to inflation. I point out that wages are rising and outpacing inflation, so by the metric they used the economy is doing well. Then someone inexplicably brings in the minimum wage (FTR, “Workers in the bottom pay quartile also saw median “real” income gains of 6% since 2019, more than the rest of the income distribution.”[https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/us-job-market-softens-gains-minority-groups-hang-balance-2023-11-27/#:~:text=Workers in the bottom pay,rest of the income distribution] But who cares about the facts? They don’t really mean anything anymore.). I point out that this isn’t about the minimum wage (BTW, I agree that it should be raised) and people still go off on how in their anecdotal experience minimum wage is not enough to get by.
It’s like anything to ignore reality. It’s the same ridiculousness I see from conservatives when I’m debating climate change: just ignore the facts, cherry-pick some data, throw in some anecdotes, and try to reframe the debate.
It’s the subjective experience of not seeing the wage growth themselves, combined with things not being acceptable for a longer time than Biden or Trump’s presidency. Things are improving right now, but haven’t caught up to people having economic security. When you’ve sunk deep enough, it takes a longer period of rising to finally catch a breath. Basically, the current growth must sustain for longer to get more people into a good position. If things continue on their current path, people will calm down.
It’s also true that necessities like housing have inflated in price far faster than other goods, again, for longer than a decade. Unnecessary goods might be cheaper than ever, but you NEED things like shelter and there are NO alternatives. Despite good competition, the demand is inelastic, so limited excess supply translates to soaring prices, plus, other factors are at play.
It also isn’t a good idea ignore subjective experiences in general. Not only are people almost always right to be unhappy on some level, invalidating their lived experiences isn’t a good idea. Democrats will not be successful if they don’t listen to people’s displeasure. Basic economic measures are essential, but not sufficient to make voters happier.
There’s not much I disagree with in your post. However, this all stems from a poster saying that (effectively) they don’t want deflation, but for wages to out-pace inflation, and I pointed out that this is already happening. By their own metric they should be happy with the economy, even if they haven’t personally benefitted from it, but instead they are unhappy with it but that’s based on a false belief.
It also isn’t a good idea ignore subjective experiences in general. Not only are people almost always right to be unhappy on some level, invalidating their lived experiences isn’t a good idea. Democrats will not be successful if they don’t listen to people’s displeasure. Basic economic measures are essential, but not sufficient to make voters happier.
And this is basically what the article is all about, that the economy is actually going in the right direction, but everyone thinks it isn’t. Spreading the false belief that we are still in situation where inflation is out-pacing wages is just further spreading the false belief that is making people upset. I get that people still have a ways to go before they make up for what was lost to inflation, but being constantly grim about the state of the economy for bad reasons isn’t helping anyone. It’s probably just making it worse.
I’m coming late to this rodeo. I see minimum wage as relevant if the recent statutory raises of the minimum wage are behind the “wages are rising faster than inflation” point. I need to see a distribution chart showing which raises are rising faster, because a lot of pay went from $10 to $15 in the last few years, and that’s a 33% pay increase for those people. What if the people earning between $30 and $60 saw no raises, or worse, lost their jobs and got new ones for less?
I need to see a distribution chart showing which raises are rising faster
I’d be curious to see what your research finds on this too.
Most of the places around me pay way less than the actual cost of living
This is mathematically impossible, unless you live in a place that’s a combination of heavy commuting and like, tourism.
And this is in suburban/rural Georgia
Yeah it’s definitely mathematically impossible. Your standards of living are out of whack with local standards of living.
Even worse, most establishments are actually choosing to short-staff themselves to save money
You live in a dying town.
“Mathematically impossible” my ass, everyone commutes 2 hours to the nearest city because work outside of urban areas is unsustainable. And no, the county has had a steady high growth rate for around 3 decades by now because of the prestige from Atlanta rubbing off + low cost to buy a house make Georgia seem appealing to middle class people, and aggressive advertising by the county makes people move here, it’s not “dying”.
“Local standards of living” are what I gave you, that’s what statistics say. If you don’t like science you can just say so. Hell, it’s not that hard to just Google “median income in Georgia” (spoiler alert: median personal income is $30,000, which is very clearly unsustainable).
In this day and age, it’s near impossible to survive out of school if you don’t have family willing to pay for you. Hell, if I didn’t have family to fall back on I would probably have been in the streets starving rather than be getting my degree.
What does this have to do with what we’re talking about?
Less than 1% of people make minimum wage, so minimum wage isn’t really relevant to any discussion.
Edit: Wrong by a tiny bit. It’s 1.3%
Yes it is, it is the absolute floor that someone can be paid.
Yes I am aware. That’s still not relevant whatsoever.
But it is relevant?
Just like when massive unions get better pay rates (or weekends) it raises the bar for what all other workers expect, except the min wage has MORE effect since it applies across all employment.
“A rising tide lifts all boats”
Yeah sure, less than 1% of working Americans make minimum wage. Gonna need a citation for that one.
It’s 1.3%
https://www.bls.gov/opub/reports/minimum-wage/2022/home.htm
And that’s counting all laborers, including young people and the heavily disabled who have work programs
And $7.50 is a pointless figure to use as representative of minimum wage. When established, the minimum wage was equivalent to $26 today, and most states had higher minimums even before they went up to $15.
I think we should tie the minimum wage to local (probably generally county/parish) COL, updated biannually.
But the minimum wage currently shapes a miniscule amount of people’s bargaining power.
Dude, that is the federal minimum, which hasn’t been raised in over 30 years. The states had minimums closer to $10 to $12 in the last 20 years, and many went up to $15 in the last 3 years. That is still much less buying power than minimum wage was at its establishment.
That’s not relevant to any discussion tho. 1.3% of people are at the federal min
Dude I corrected you on this EXACT BS you posted earlier.
You might just be a chat bot.
If someone is claiming that the rise In minimum wages in many states does not impact the “wages are growing faster than inflation” assertion, it is entirely relevant as many of those people saw a 33% raise over the last few years, and that is way more than 1.3% of wage earners.
What rise in federal min wage are you talking about?
I’m here to help and provide information or assistance on a wide range of topics. If something seems weird or if you have a specific question or topic you’d like to discuss, feel free to let me know, and I’ll do my best to assist you!
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Your number leaves out all of the people whose pay rates are above minimum wage, but are still poverty wages. There is quite a large gap between minimum and poverty, and not in the direction that benefits the working class.
Furthermore, raising the minimum wage leads to people in that gap also getting raises. People can and do benefit tremendously from the minimum wage being raised, even if they have never personally worked at minimum wage. As such, the minimum wage is relevant to far, far more workers than are actually getting it.
Your number leaves out all of the people whose pay rates are above minimum wage, but are still poverty wages.
This is because minimum wage has nothing to do with this discussion
This is my original point.
Furthermore, raising the minimum wage leads to people in that gap also getting raises.
They’re already getting raises because wages are up across the board. There are two jobs for every person right now and that isn’t likely to change for a long time.
I’m sorry, how in the fuck is the minimum wage not related to the fact that rising prices and inflation are causing people to struggle financially? That’s like saying the tides have nothing to do with surfing.
And sure, wages are up, the problem is that if you bother to account for inflation and COL, the purchasing power they provide is down. That’s what people mean when they say “real wages.” I’m sure you know that on some level, even if for purposes of this discussion, you’re pretending not to.
I’m sorry, how in the fuck is the minimum wage not related to the fact that rising prices and inflation are causing people to struggle financially?
Because a small enough people make.minimum wage that it has no bearing on overall price pressures for labor.
Idk why you think I’m “pretending” anything.
Wages may be outpacing inflation, but so have prices for a long time, and wages haven’t reflected increases in productivity since around the 70s or so. In about 2015, I remember looking up some statistics and finding out that wages for the average worker had decreased about 5% since the 70s while CEO compensation had more than doubled, when you account for inflation. The most absurd example I can think of off the top of my head is that, when adjusted for inflation, the cost of a taco from Taco Bell has doubled since the 90s. There’s some great comparisons out there, but some stuff has increased at more than double the rate of inflation since the 80s, with the biggest offender being the cost of college, which has increased by something like 1,153% (if I remember right, it’s been several years since I’ve looked at those statistics).
Plus, local conditions never reflect the national averages/medians, so there are probably areas and industries that are seeing massive booms in wages and work to life balance and such, but there’s others that aren’t and some areas where even booming industries are seeing a decline. The IRS report for 2021 says that 51% of Americans made $15,000 or less that year. During my 20s (around the 2010s), I made $20,000-$30,000 a year working at a local fish market. This would put me probably somewhere around the top 45% of Americans by annual wages comparatively, but due to the high CoL in my hometown, I couldn’t afford to rent a studio apartment. The lowest rent I found in that time was a single room in somebody’s house with “occasional kitchen access” for $1,000 a month. Studio apartments started at $2,000 a month. The average American has something like $20,000 in their bank account, while the median American has $600.
I’m reminded of all the articles I see about people spending their “pandemic savings” where I think to myself, “What savings? The $1,000 check we got that some idiot of a politician said that everybody would be using to go buy a brand new car? 2 years ago they were talking about how we had all gone through the majority of our savings just to keep up with CoL increases.”
Those charts are federal data, and you are correct about the winners of productivity gains. I can tell you why “wages are going up” - many states raised minimum wages from as low as $10/hr to $15, over a period of 3 years. The working poor got raises and are still working poor. Also, these people can’t save their raises. They spend them on basic necessities, so there is a good chunk of economic growth right there. That’s an example of an economic multiplier effect >= 1.0.
Yeah, the “fight for $15” has been going on so long that if minimum wage had kept up with inflation, it would be more like $24-30 an hour now. Just another example of people twisting the numbers to show the conclusions that they want.
“falling inflation” means prices are still rising…the rate of increase is what has decreased. What we need is negative inflation…or said differently, price decrease.
You don’t actually want that. It encourages people to “invest” by sticking hard cash in a mattress. It rewards people for doing absolutely nothing but taking money out of the economy.
Ideal (if we’re keeping a monetary exchange society, anyway) is low (<3%), predictable inflation combined with wages increasing in proportion to productivity. We had a period of relatively low inflation followed by a giant spike, plus wage gains that are nowhere near matching productivity gains over the last 50 years, and that’s where things hurt. Capitalism doesn’t seem capable of this, however, as it’s always chasing the next hype cycle that leads to these spikes and lulls.
As opposed to what we have going on right now, which is to punish working class people so ruling class people can still have prosperity.
Deflation means stagnation or crash in economic terms
Cool, working class people aren’t really thriving right now anyway. Maybe an economy crash could result in a restructuring of wealth and new tax policy.
Sure. I don’t believe in infinite growth either, I’m unsure however who’d come up on top. The new aristocracy?
And yet it is exactly what the people need to be happy
Meditate on that point
For every economic problem, the burden falls on the working class. Deflation makes people unhappy, high inflation makes people unhappy, and low inflation is the “best” because things get worse more slowly. Capitalism only helps workers when large enough innovations happens. Otherwise, the owners capture all the benefits of growth, or squeeze the workers to make the appearance of it.
The majority of people are in debt. If you owe $1000, you’ll still owe $1000 but $1000 will be more money than it is now.
If prices drop then you have more money to pay for that 1000 dollars is how proponents are looking at it, i assume
You don’t though. Wages don’t rise to keep up with inflation, but they’d sure as shit drop to keep up with deflation.
“falling inflation” means prices are still rising…the rate of increase is what has decreased. What we need is negative inflation…or said differently, price decrease.”
Im not arguing validity, but just commenting on how i think people en masse will hear what top comment actually said.
You very well may be correct. But it requires the inclusion of wage change which the top comment didnt include. Minimum wage is a protection against employers lowering wages. So for those who are already at that minimum, they will be in a better position
Assuming they still have a job. Which im sure you would argue they wouldnt. And i wouldnt bet against you if you did argue that would happen
People have always been, in the grand sense, pretty dumb.
True
Wages need to keep up with inflation, else it’s a bubble. 😉 But we fundamentally agree
What you are describing is deflation and it’s only happened twice during the history of the United States. It is also generally looked at as a bad thing.
Is inflation generally looked at as a good thing or a bad thing? Ive only ever heard people complain about inflation.
If they are both bad things im willing to give the bad thing that improves my life a try over the bad thing that makes everything more expensive.
Granted i have nothing so im probably on the side of things that is least effected by the bad side of deflation.
If i can spend more money on the things i want to, it will absolutely help small local businesses near me
A small amount of inflation is healthy. You REALLY want to avoid deflation, because that means the value of your money is increasing. If people know their money will be worth more in the future, they won’t spend it, incentivized to save and sit on it. That means on average everyone spends less, slowing the economy down and starting into a recession/depression.
Gonna slap this with the good old “I am not an economist” disclaimer, juat what I remember from economics class in high school
What you learned in high school puts you miles ahead of 99% of these comments
People still have to spend money, hoarding wealth makes no sense if you can’t eat and pay for services and utilities.
The idea is that deflation affects the investor class. Assuming a “healthy” 3% inflation rate, the value of your savings decreases by 3% per year. That means you lose money if you can’t invest in something earning more than 3%. Traditionally interest rates have been around 0%, which means bonds and savings accounts also pay 0%. So, your only options to not lose the value of your savings is to invest in the stock market, risky businesses, or real estate.
As a middle class person that means that it mostly affects my 401k, but for millionaires and billionaires, deflation means that they would sit on their hoard instead of investing it. Traditionally that means no funding for new businesses, inventions and ideas, and that’s also why the investor class pays much lower taxes than the working classes.
But nowadays “investment” seems to mostly be buying good companies and enshitifying them or bribing politicians, so maybe it would be better if we encouraged the rich to sit on their money instead of using it to make society worse.
I have no idea what this is in reference to
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Only problem that right now people also may decide against buying because they can’t afford it. Also, I’m not sure world is producing goods at a healthy rate either, more like we’ve got a bit of an overproduction
Yeah, obviously wages SHOULD be keeping up with inflation and inflation should be a low, stable amount. That’s the problem, not inflation in general.
Japan has been struggling with deflation (=decrease of prices) for a good 25 years now… you really don’t want that happening. Ideally you want something around 2% inflation.
What are the issues with deflation other than that people wouldn’t want to invest in whatever is available?
You also shouldn’t purchase, since goods will get cheaper over time. Also don’t take loans for the same reasons. Basically you should take your money in cash and sit on it.
That falls apart with necessities like food and medicine, doesn’t it?
Those are considered inelastic goods, yes. They are also way too small an amount to keep an economy going. Most things we spend money on aren’t like that, and demand going down like so will affect markets; companies not producing necessities or for export will fold if it lasts too long, etc.
Deflation is a death spiral. China is going through it rn. The currency gets stronger, but then people wait to buy stuff like houses because it will be cheaper in a few months. It creates a snowball effect as people all start holding off on buying and selling stuff, wanting the best deal possible, or then being unable to buy things if people hold off on selling.
Because interest rates are insane trapping people in homes they no longer want but can’t afford to leave?
Speaking of… My car got totalled at the end of October, shopping for a new one, I saw interest rates for me between 7 and 8%, for other folks, I saw one as high as 12.25%(!) On a CAR LOAN.
Because interest rates are insane trapping people in homes they no longer want but can’t afford to leave?
I’m in this comment and I don’t like it.
Least you got a home. I am on a very long lease and landlord is getting offers. I got about 2.5 years until someone just offers him a million bucks in cash. Then I am out thousands of dollars in moving expense plus changing my kids school. Plan to fight it but I am sure I will lose.
Sorry bro.
Try to own property as quickly as you can. Unfortunately, even the market for that has gone to shit thanks to investment companies.
This is what we get for breeding for greed. Gotta stop rewarding shitbags just because they have money and start holding them accountable for how they got it.
It won’t happen, though, lol. These problems won’t get solved just like global warming 🤷. We don’t want to solve them.
Well there’s one way to solve these problems 🤠👉
Yeah, I’m aware it can be worse. I could go into details about how I got boned, but that’s not the point either of us were making. I have friends that rent and the only ones that didn’t get their nuts put in a vice were already under section 8. One couple just had to uproot again because the landlord sold. Again. Second time in three years. I can’t help them, and I hate it.
Interest rates should never have been that low to begin with. It was basically free money for the wealthy, and it’s how housing became such an investment for big businesses. The rates we have now are still at historic lows, they just feel high compared to the bonkers low rates of the last couple decades. I understand the frustration 100%, but lowering the rates again is NOT the answer at all.
For Christmas dinner I vote we just eat the fucking rich
I agree, but we gotta be more thoughtful about it.
I recently had a crazy interaction where I was apparently “The Rich” that needs eaten because I landed a job with a good salary.
Working people aren’t the enemy, needs to be made clear as well. Hell, even corporate headwigs raking in a few million aren’t even close to your enemy in this regard either.
Sounds like jealousy honestly. I’ve had a couple conversations here in the past that because I went out and started my own electrical contracting business instead of working for someone that all of a sudden in the bourgeoise. Like, dude, why in the hell would I keep myself in a position of struggling when I have the skillset and knowledge to make a lot more money, though I’m in a small tourist town so it’s not like I have a bunch of commercial contracts. I have one employee, who makes damn good money for an apprentice. I don’t have health insurance because I can’t fucking afford it without being back in the poor house. I ain’t affording a house anytime soon, and my rent is $2k/month. Most of my gains for this year are going to be diminished because I have to buy a new truck to replace my old car with almost 200k miles on it, and interest rates are fucked. And then taxes take the rest because this country hates people striking out on their own. I make just enough to be slightly ahead of myself year over year, but my wife and I aren’t on a beach in Bora Bora eating bons bons.
Point is, people are angry, and I get it, I’m pretty irritated too. But don’t let people drag you down for your successes just because they’re subscribing to the crabs in a bucket mentality.
“Why Americans feel gloomy about the economy despite paying a lot more for things than the official inflation numbers claim and having a wage that isn’t rising as high as official numbers claim”
Not to leave out unemployment has run out for thousands, making the numbers look good.
Exactly. When my benefits ran out 2 months ago, I no longer showed up as unemployed. Thankfully, I finally got a job after nine months of anxiety.
While I have a better income than before, it’s only about 10%, while prices on everything (that i need for daily survival) went up at least 20%, and food nearly doubled. No way I can get a house - those prices went up at least 40% here in the last 4 years. New car? Fuggettaboutit. Basic sedans going for 30k! Used ones probably for $24k, from what I read. Since when does COBRA at $1900 per month for one person make sense? It’s a slap in the face.
Didn’t the student loan moratorium also end? Something started back, maybe evictions too. None of it is good.
I can’t remember the last time people felt good about the economy.
I can… but I was born in the 70s
I’d say it was pre-2008, but I was born in the 90s.
My son graduated with a degree in economics in 2020 and still hasn’t found a job. He’s not counted in the unemployment numbers because he hasn’t filed for benefits. We need to look at labor participation as well as underemployment instead of the useless stats being used in this article. Real wages have tanked. People are running up debt just to buy groceries. It’s desperate out there.
He’s not counted in the unemployment numbers because he hasn’t filed for benefits.
That’s untrue. From the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics:
In the Current Population Survey, people are classified as unemployed if they meet all of the following criteria:
- They were not employed during the survey reference week.
- They were available for work during the survey reference week, except for temporary illness.
- They made at least one specific, active effort to find a job during the 4-week period ending with the survey reference week (see active job search methods) OR they were temporarily laid off and expecting to be recalled to their job.
There are other statistics measuring unemployment claims, but when you hear, “the unemployment rate for Oct 2023 is 3.9%”, that is unrelated to benefits.
Doesn’t take a genius to figure out that when the economy restabilizes, that doesn’t mean the cost of consumer goods go down or wages go up, it just means the billionaires running the show aren’t losing millions
Someone feel free to explain these two simultaneous headlines-
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Since I’m just renting, I have more disposable income for luxury shopping.
I know no one with a lower rent than my mortgage. Literally no one.
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I likely do, nice to meet you.
I also don’t pay taxes, maintenance, or homeowners insurance. I only have to pay to insure my things.
You can argue those costs are baked into my $1250 rent, and you’re probably right, but I guarantee it’s less than your mortgage and associated costs would be where I live.
Plus people are maxing out debt
Probably this, on the heels of: https://lemmy.world/post/8643298
So spending is probably up, but it’s just deepening the debt hole. We’ll see where the bottom of that is soon enough…
I’d say you’re spot on with this, I’d love to see the stats of spending prior to black Friday… betting it was lower than all last years.
The Black Friday article in the picture basically explains the last part of your comment. Everyone waited for sales all year and spent now
People who feel bad buy things to feel better. They might not be able to afford a new house or a car or medical care, but they’ll spend something on gifts.
Also, maybe it’s members of the owning class buying things. They’re getting more money all the time, whether the economy does “good” or not. So they’ve always got money to blow on shit.
Plus it specifically says online sales. Online sales could be up 7.5%, but brick and mortar store sales could be down 50% for all we know.
You can buy a tv for cheaper than a loaf of bread.
Jesus, what kind of bread are you eating?
Only the best ritziest! I saved all year for it.
Sure, no problem. Spending rose by 7.5%, inflation until recent months was at 10%. Net real sales is down by 3.5%. People are spending more for less. This is why we are gloomy. Still, I recognize things are getting better on the macro level.
