Sarah Katz, 21, had a heart condition and was not aware of the drink’s caffeine content, which exceeded that of cans of Red Bull and Monster energy drinks combined, according to a legal filing
I hope this lawsuit forces them to remove this. I’m sorry this young girl died. This isn’t the first issue they had with this drink. My husband and I were discussing it months ago. He thought it was just lemonade - sugar, water, lemons. We didn’t figure out why he was up all night. Later someone old him how much caffeine it has. We had no idea. It’s dangerous to those with high bp.
I’m not going to lie when I first read the headline I thought this was probably a frivolous lawsuit but after reading the article I thought that stuff should get pulled.
It’s like that McDonald’s hot coffee lawsuit. Poor lady was made a mockery of for ordering hot coffee because it sounds ridiculous at first but she had 2nd degree burns. It was recklessly hot, as was this drink recklessly produced and marketed.
3rd degree groin burns that required grafts.
She initially asked for just 20k to cover her medical bills, and they instead offered like $800.
Also of note, that huge 2.7mil fine the jury found? Just the profits from 2 days of McDonald’s coffee sales. The judge reduced it to $650k, but even that likely wasent paid as they settled out of court at that point.
It was also discovered that McDonald’s was aware of the danger of serving their coffee that hot, yet they continued to do so because it meant they had to give fewer free refills. If you have to wait 20 minutes for your coffee to cool down before you drink it, you’re going to get less refills overall
The worst part of that is knowing they probably determined it’s cheaper to settle injuries than keep it at the temps they were supposed to. I know corporations are soulless money making machines but that always feels extra dark to think about
corporations are soulless money making machines
The worst part: Corporations are run by people, people hired to do a job, people who can say “fuck no, I’m not doing this evil thing for a couple bucks of a raise”… but eventually some people get hired who will do that evil thing, even with no raise.
Remember Google’s “don’t be evil”? Eventually they hired enough people who don’t care, that they could remove the slogan.
IIRC their explanation was for take away, keeping the coffee hotter so it would last until you got home.
I thought the specific wording in their documentation was because they wanted the smell of the coffee to fill the restaurant. Did McDonald’s give refills of coffee?
They did for seniors at the time
The McDonald’s lady’s case blew up because the jury slapped McDonald’s with huge punitive damages. If she would have gotten the 10-30k she asked for initially or even just the 125k for actual damages no one would care about the case. But the 2.7 million in punitive damages just make this lawsuit seem frivolous. But she had no control over that.
And IIRC one big reason why she won was because the cups weren’t suited for holding such hot liquid. The temperature of coffee didn’t decrease in McDonald’s after the lawsuit.
There were several factors at once. Serving to a customer at 180+ is a bit high. And that particular machine was slightly overcalibrated. It was 193 degrees if I recall, not 180-190. And then, yeah, the cups are crap.
I didn’t fully appreciate our mouth’s tolerance to temperature until I was lazy the other day and used my finger to stir some tea instead of going back to the kitchen and getting a spoon.
Blazing hot for a finger, nice and refreshing for a drink
Gonna suggest it’s less simple than that. The mouth only touches a small amount of fluid at once. The temperature plummets really quickly when you sip the hot coffee.
When you stick a finger in the coffee, there’s a lot more coffee keeping the liquid contacting your finger hot. That’s why you sip hot coffee. If you do a quick dip with your finger, it won’t burn.
It’s similar to how you can accidentally brush a hot pan and not get a burn.
That is also very true
Funny you should mention that. I use to work for the franchise owner who’s brother-in-law (who also worked for the franchise) gave that woman the cup of coffee (or so he would say) when they were franchising with McDonalds. And guess where I was working at the time? Panera
Where are you working now I’m sure this streak isn’t over.
If I had to guess based on external evidence, maybe Congress?
Okay that’s fucking funny.
It also explains why the coffee is so bad. Heating coffee above a certain temp is just burning it.
It should be brewed at 195-205 F, just a bit higher than McDonalds served it.
But normally it would quickly cool down after it’s brewed. Any burning from reaching that temp is from a hot plate exceeding the temp and burning the bits of oil and soot that are in contact with the plate. Water, and I assume coffee, can’t be heated above boiling at 212 F anyway, but the hot plate and carafe or urn parts can, and steam can, and oil can.
Anyway I’m just saying it would be reasonable for fresh and good-tasting coffee to be in that temperature range. But it’s only going to stay there for any length of time if it’s burned on a hot plate or, more ideally, dripped directly into an insulated container.
It’s more likely their coffee tastes like shit because it was badly roasted, ground months ago, has since gone stale and bitter, and is full of unnecessary added chemicals and preservatives, just like the rest of their shit food.
If I remember correctly, her labia got fused together… Super fucked up burns.
Do a bit of research into the marketing actually used for this drink. Assuming the store uses the standard Panera marketing, there’s a big sign on the dispenser saying how much caffeine is in it. It’s a tragic mistake, but unless that location uniquely screwed up, that’s all it is.
Another commentor said their husband ordered it thinking it was a regular lemonade. The issue could be more wide spread than a single store.
I noted that. Yet another commentor linked to a vlog where the signs weren’t present because the dispensers were behind the counter and had to be ordered. I think there are absolutely locations NOT showing the marketing.
But please check out the other comments here and see the one showing what the dispensers with signs look like. Those are BIG signs with BIG mention of caffeine.
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I don’t think they’re legally liable after what I’ve read through and personally experienced – but I absolutely don’t think this is a frivolous lawsuit. It’s still worth merit when it comes to signage and frankly medical testing.
The biggest problem is that she drank it without knowing the heart condition. We need to have better detection and screening to make sure people know this.
From the article:
Katz had a heart condition called long QT syndrome type 1 and avoided energy drinks at the recommendation of her doctors, according to the filing.
her roommate and close friend, Victoria Rose Conroy [said,] “She was very, very vigilant about what she needed to do to keep herself safe,” Conroy said. “I guarantee if Sarah had known how much caffeine this was, she never would have touched it with a 10-foot pole.”
I don’t mind it existing as a product. If it does though it should be very clearly labeled with warnings that are impossible to miss. This seems great for Panaras on college campuses, but there should be no possibility you confuse it for something else.
More caffeine than two energy drinks combined seems very excessive to me.
So are you suggesting we ban coffee, which typically has more caffeine than this drink?
What coffee are you drinking that has almost 400mg of caffeine in it? Most have around 100mg.
Most light- to medium-roasts approach 150mg/250mL. The one I’m baselining is Dunkin Donuts, the most popular coffee in the US. A standard Large Iced has almost 400mg of caffeine. You can order it with a shot of espresso, if you like.
We have to remember that the drink she was consuming (multiple times) was a 30oz. There are very few coffees with less than 350-400mg of caffeine in a 24oz size (or smaller)
How many people are confusing a large iced coffee with a shot of espresso as a caffeine free beverage?
Wondering the context of this question, considering the topic of this particular chain. Someone said 400mg is excessive, and then someone else doubled-down that they thought coffee didn’t have 400mg of caffeine.
And if it helps you feel better, this actually is coffee. It’s the same green coffee extract that Starbucks Refreshers use, more of it (ironically, Starbucks no longer advertises that their refreshers are caffeinated like they used to despite the fact they are).
Interesting. I tried to find an informative link about green coffee extract, and I stumbled into this. People are acting like that lemonade is this stuff. LOL
Why didn’t you read the very clear, explicit label?
What very clear, explicit label?
The Charged Lemonade was “offered side-by-side with all of Panera’s non-caffeinated and/or less caffeinated drinks” and was advertised as a “plant-based and clean” beverage that contained as much caffeine as the restaurant’s dark roast coffee, according to photos of both the menu and beverage dispensers in the store, which were included in the wrongful death lawsuit.
Forget the article; go to an actual Panera. The amount of caffeine is clearly labeled right under the name of the drink. To be fair, their drinks contain way too much, but you can’t say that they don’t already make the label clear and easy to interpret. People are idiots who don’t read the label beyond the “lemonade” part.
I don’t think it’s “way too much”. A large of those every morning is still under the “healthy” FDA recommendations, wherein there are zero known negative side-effects for most people.
“Plant based and clean with as much caffeine as our dark roast coffee.” is the full quote. Then, it lists the specific amount of caffeine for the two sizes.
You can argue it should have a more eye-catching and cautionary presentation, but it’s disingenuous to say it wasn’t clear and explicit.
contained as much caffeine as the restaurant’s dark roast coffee
That part. Though I don’t think people realize how much caffeine is in their dark roast coffee. Because it is more caffeine than multiple energy drinks for the same volume. There’s a reason a standard cup of coffee is like 6 oz instead of 20 oz.
It also includes the caffeine “dosage” in grams for those who want/need to know. That inclusion is more prominent than the description he’s quoting.
Flip-side, you can’t get a 6oz coffee in most of the US. The most popular coffee around me is generally sold between 20oz and 30oz sizes.
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Who’s serving up coffee in 6oz cups? Starbucks and most other coffee places have standard sizes of 12, 16, and 20oz.
Standard isn’t what people drink. It’s what the nutrition label on the package and medical guidelines are generally talking about, though. When the FDA says 4-5 cups of coffee is safe for most adults, they don’t mean 48-100oz of coffee.
But as to who makes 6 oz cups? When you make coffee yourself, the cups on the coffee maker are 6 oz.
Yeah, I also wasn’t aware. I imagine there were signs, but who looks for the caffeine content of lemonade? In my case I just had a dash t flavor soda, so I didn’t notice until my kid pointed it out
Similarly, when my kids were little, I kept them away from stimulants, but who expects to have to prohibit lemonade for the caffeine hit?
Sorry but no. If we just arbitrarily remove products because someone managed to die because of it… We literally won’t have anything.
Let’s not use the term arbitrary arbitrarily. It just makes people stupid.
Feel free to elaborate.
Girl dies from drinking caffeine presumably millions of people drink every year.
/u/Orionza I hope this lawsuit forces them to remove this.
Per Google definition
adjective based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system.
Seems arbitrary to me. If we just start removing items because someone unalive themselves with it… where does that line get drawn? The regular 20-ounce serving has 260 milligrams. The can of energy drink in front of me is 200mg @ 12 oz. So per fluid ounce, it’s not that high.
If I get in a car accident and die… are we going to call for the removal of cars? Just the model that killed me? How is this the companies/products fault?https://www.panerabread.com/en-us/lemonade-chargers.html
Panera Charged Lemonades are the ultimate energy drink guaranteed to charge up your day.
Plant-based and Clean with as much caffeine as our Dark Roast coffee.
8 months ago Food Theroy did agreat video on this. It’s very appropriately titled given the unfortunate circumstances. To say this drink was caffeineted is a major understatement, it was basically four and a half monsters in one cup.
Franky, it was reckless for Panera to make and sell this drink and they absolutely earned this lawsuit. There was pently of forewarning that the abnormally high caffeine content in this was dangerous for certain groups. Hope the family wins big, nothing will bring back their loved one but this could’ve been avoided with more clear nutrientional warnings.
f u panera
Why is quadruple Monster even on the menu of a restaurant that is mostly famous for soup?
Because they feel the need to pivot and try to extract more money and bring in other types of people by offering more options for everything. To bad it’s all garbage, and very overpriced.
Maybe I am wrong, but there is no way this place can sustain itself with the prices they charge and the drop in quality they now offer compared to early 2000’s.
Agreed, I stopped eating there 5-6 years ago after another shrinkflation update to their menu ruined my favorite sandwich. Haven’t missed the place.
There was one on campus at my university. I almost never ate there, but it was always pretty popular. This drink seems like it’s designed for that. Get a cup of this stuff and drink it over the course of a long day/night and it’d be fine. Mistaking it for just lemonade, or even a regular caffienated drink, is a huge mistake that should never have been able to happen. There should be clear warnings and labels.
They did have quality in the early 2000s, remember my grandma taking us their for their awesome bread. Sad to see it enshittify
It was probably invented by and for BOH staff
It’s effectively the largest size of a coffee, which is comparable to what coffee shops sell.
The other thing is, these drinks are in the same dispensers, the same location, that used to have regular juices. Even assuming the signs were there, it’s set up for no one to pay attention
Also it’s mixed on-site by employees, so consistency of caffeine between batches occasions is at risk.
Considering that a fatal dose of caffeine is between 10,000-15,000 mg, I don’t think some variance in the mix is really a problem.
No? Not even with the free refills the girl who died from this was getting?
At 390 mg, it’s more like 2½ Monsters. For some people (me) that’s just Tuesday
Good lord. I drank like half a red bull once and felt like I was going to die… Why would anyone even want to consume that much…
I had a drop of redbull once and was raging for months. It’s strong stuff
I had one molecule of red bull once and was so hyped I flew to the moon.
I bet your arms were tired.
No, they had wings, those probably did get tired
So are you saying “f u” to all coffee shops? Because I can (and often do) get a standard on-menu beverage with more caffeine than these larges without a single warning on it at Dunkin Donuts.
These lemonades are at least covered in “this has THIS much caffeine in it” advertising.
I don’t understand how it’s reckless to serve something that 99.99% of the population will never have any significant health problem with, even if they drank double or triple the amount this girl did.
All caffinated beverages should be required to disclose their caffeine content on the packaging.
Welp, this post might have just saved my life. I had no idea, and a heart condition.
Yeah, this is really serious. I hope people don’t construe this to be an absurd example of over litigation, while it is a completely reasonable case. Kind of like the McDonald’s coffee lady getting clowned on when she is a genuine victim.
We don’t know if it’s a completely reasonable case, yet. A few statements in the article would clearly cross the line of honest journalism if they weren’t quotations (IMO they still do). Specifically, I think quoting 3 words of their “has lots of caffeine” descriptive sign out-of-context was incredibly dishonest. Might as well comment that a “Do Not Enter” sign reads “Enter”. I mean it TECHNICALLY does, but let’s give the reader the full story and let us decide, and the “Do not” is important. Just like the second half of “Plant-based and Clean with as much caffeine as our Dark Roast coffee” is more contextually important than merely “Plant-based and clean”.
Is it possible the signs were smudged, missing, facing the wrong direction, or too small? Yeah, sure. But that’s not what the article is representing as the truth. Some of the quotes comparing the lemonade with the lower-caffeine “dark coffee” even seem nonsensical because the article is hiding the full context of the above quote, that the lemonade is advertised as “as much caffeine as our dark coffee”.
Just want to pop in and remind people that the supposed scourge of “frivolous lawsuits” was just a horribly effective PR stunt to drive down corporate accountability. If you feel wronged, sue if you can. Let a judge or jury decide.
However, it’s about preponderance of evidence, not “your favorite team”. Even if we have valid reasons not to like Panera, whether THIS lawsuit has merit should only have to do with the facts of the situation.
And the article was a lying sack of turd in response to that question. The article being sleazy doesn’t mean Panera is innocent, but it doesn’t mean they ain’t.
To that, I largely agree. But, given the state of income inequality and the general treatment of humans as mere consumers, to be manipulated and harvested… I think it’d be a disservice to us to view any corporate behavior with anything less than extreme skepticism.
Maybe even go as far as to work off the notion that corporations are guilty until proven innocent. Not individuals, but just the corporate entity.
Least based take
Absolutely. But sometimes “the bad guy” is innocent. Not every murder victim falls at Charlie Manson’s feet. Not person now dead that Charlie Manson once met was murdered by him. The problem is that we are so emotionally wired for revenge. Just look at a prosecutor whenever someone is DNA exonerated, screaming “we’re letting a monster free today!”
We need to fix the relationship between people and businesses, as the latter most certainly does exploit us. Socializing and forced ownership-sharing would be a great start. But I would never go so far as “guilty until proven innocent”. I think the preponderance standard should be enough. But that’s just me.
Also the part where she had the same thing to drink before.
Conroy said Katz had bought at least one other Charged Lemonade in the days before her cardiac arrest.
I missed that line, and it blows the thing wide open. There’s no way someone with a heart condition who is avoiding caffeine couldn’t tell a LARGE Charged Lemonade was caffeinated after buying it on multiple occasions. Even if you’re “resistant” to caffeine, you’d feel something.
That’s because clickbait was a thing even before you clicked to get news.
That’s insane.
I drank a monster energy once (well, to be precise, about half of one.),back when energy drinks were still relatively new and there wasnt as much common knowledge about them as there is today.
Just that half of a can was enough to make me feel like I was going to die.
My resting heart rate was over 150bpm, was shaking with tremors, and cold sweating. I genuinely thought I was gonna die.
And I have never so much as touched another one, and will never touch another one, for the rest of my life.
They are incredibly dangerous and shouldnt be something any kid or idiot can walk into a store and buy with couple bucks.
and I have absolutely no idea how there are people that exist out there that can drink 6-10 of them a day without spontaneously combusting from tremor induced cellular friction.
They are not incredibly dangerous, not be a long shot.
They can be dangerous to a very small subset of people with preexisting conditions and that’s about it.
“They are not incredibly dangerous, except for when they are incredibly dangerous”
By that logic, peanuts are also “incredibly dangerous”.
Note: I’m not promoting or condoning the consumption of energy drinks, they are generally unhealthy. But calling them “incredibly dangerous” because they can evoke such a reaction in a small subset of the population is bullshit.
Thats a stupid as fuck argument.
Know whats on the label, and in fact, in the name, of peanut butter/peanut products?
Peanuts
and they even still have a specific warning, for extra special stupid people, that says “warning, contains peanuts”
What was on the label of Charged Lemonaid? Of Monster?
No Indicators, No Warnings, No nothing.
Miss me with this bullshit false equivalency.
You clearly didn’t read the article, or actually look at basically any energy drink can. The label of the charged lemonade does in fact list exactly how much caffeine is in each drink, as well as stating it contains as much caffeine as their dark roast coffee.
And Googling the label on a Monster Energy Drink can, there is a label stating that the total caffeine content is 120mg with a warning recommending against consumption by children or those sensitive to caffeine.
Both Monster and the Charged lemonade have labels that say “contains caffeine” you know if you had a heart problem and your doctor said not to consume large amounts of caffeine maybe you would read that label just like the peanuts.
At least you chose an appropriate username.
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And products are often labeled, not if they CONTAIN nuts, but even if they were made somewhere that also produces peanuts and there’s a slight chance of cross contamination.
This is done because of the liability. It should be easy enough to prove the Panera has liability here in the same way.
It clearly states the caffeine content on the placard in front of the drink though, and it’s called charged lemonade. While that wouldn’t necessarily imply it has caffeine, that’s at least enough to tell me it’s almost certainly not plain lemonade though and I should read what’s in it.
And vitamin water surely is loaded with vitamins, right?
While that wouldn’t necessarily imply it has vitamins, that’s at least enough to tell me it’s almost certainly not plain water though and I should read what’s in it.
Um…they do have vitamins soo…
Is it not credible that a small slice of people might be extra sensitive to something that the rest of the population can handle without issue?
I have never been sensitive to caffeine, or had any underlying issues.
Just based on that experience with half of a Monster, I’d consult a doctor to verify that.
You dont read so good
The trouble is quite a lot of people have the pre-existing condition of being brainless. So they mainline 5 cans in a row, if you do that with Coke nothing happens, if you do that with Monster even a healthy person is going to have heart problems.
Also some prat had a great idea of mixing it with Yeager. Thus mixing two of the most disgusting liquids in the world together. But more importantly mixing a stimulant and a suppressant, which again can have serious health risks even for otherwise healthy individuals.
We don’t sell glue to children even though most of them probably won’t sniff it. So why do we tolerate energy drinks for them? The lasting kids need is to be even more hyper.
Mine is cannabis and booze. Never mix something that makes me want to throw up with something that settles the stomach. If I drink too much I want it out of my body ASAP.
There often more caffeine in a standard coffee than half a litre of monster energy drink.
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Yeah like sugar…
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Please correct me as you seem to be a bit knowledgeable on this.
Taurine has no real effect on humans and is just a pr gag.
Guarana i will have to read up on.
Vitamin B doesn’t do anything tho?The vitamin B complexes have little to no acute effects, but the taurine and guarana surely do… : /
I’m guessing that every person is different when it comes to energy drink tolerance, or there might be some underlying conditions. Back when I used to drink energy drinks, I wouldn’t really feel anything except for maybe feeling a bit more “energetic” but I’m not sure how much of that is placebo. Granted, I wouldn’t drink 6-10 cans a day because I don’t think they taste that good, and would only drink a can occasionally.
Yeah, it seems for every person like the above with, I assume, a sensitivity to caffeine, there’s my friend from high school that pounded 3 BFC Monsters (32 oz each) and went to the next class like nothing happened.
It’s not really the caffeine that’s the problem in most energy drinks. It actually has less caffeine than a typical cup of coffee. It’s the addition of things like guarana, taurine, niacin, and ginseng that make them problematic for many. The high amounts of sugar in most can have pretty negative effects too.
Shit its got niacin in? That sounds scary! I’m going to cut anything that contains niacin out of my diet!
Hah!
Fair enough, caffeine aside, my point is the same. Some people look at an energy drink and begin vibrating and other need to drink it like water to feel an effect at all.
I had one can because we’re really overworked at work and I felt terrible and ended up being really useless. And this was when I was in my 30s so I wasn’t exactly some small kid
I have no issue with coffee so it’s not caffeine that’s the problem, it’s something else that’s in the drinks. I even have had caffeine pills and not had that reaction.
250ml: caffeine
Energy drinks: 80mg
Coffee: 100mg (80-120)
Cola: 25mg
Black tea: 12-20mg
Those numbers are off.
Energy drink: 80-300mg
Coffee: 80-120mg this was accurate
Cola/other soda: 25-55mg
Black tea: 40-60mg
What energy drink has 300mg caffeine in 250ml?
Highest I can think of is Viso at ~160mg per 250ml
Rockstart Xdurance has 300mg in a 20oz can
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Wait coffee has more caffeine then energy drinks?
I haven’t verified the numbers (yet), but the fact remains that no one would drink 3000 ml of coffee a day. And that’s what we see happen with energy drinks all the time (source: I’m one of the toxicologists manning emergency line in our national poison control center).
the fact remains that no one would drink 3000 ml of coffee a day
This sounds like a lot, but it’s only two pots. I used to do that all the time. I’m kinda surprised that “no one would”. I know it wasn’t healthy and I stopped because it was affecting my health.
Maybe it’s just my area. A Dunkin Large is 700ml, and I know people who pound 2 in the morning and have one over lunch on a normal day. Then actually (their/our words) drink coffee on the tough hangover days.
They’ve actually done pretty recent studies and concluded you would have to get above 10 cups of coffee for it to stop being healthy.
Note that I said healthy and NOT that it would then be unhealthy. I’m bot sure how much coffee you would have to drink for that to happen, but seeing as how caffeine was misattributed to being hard on the heart and cardiovascular system, I imagine it would take a lot or like this poor young woman, you’d have to have a heart problem already.
Speak for yourself… I brew a minimum of 3 pots daily, for me…
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Energy drinks have more in them than caffeine
Depends on the energy drink. The little V8 energy drinks have 80mg, and the green dragon extreme has 180mg in the same 8oz can. But yeah coffee has more than people think.
Yep. For proper brewed coffee, anyway.
I don’t drink energy drinks anymore but to answer your question you build up tolerance.
Half a monster is 43mg caffeine. About as much as a Pepsi, or less than 3oz of Dunkin Donuts coffee (a small is 180mg at 10oz). I’m not at all saying you’re lying about your experience, but what you are describing is an extreme caffeine sensitivity (or a reaction to something else).
I have absolutely no idea how there are people that exist out there that can drink 6-10 of them a day without spontaneously combusting from tremor induced cellular friction.
A few years ago my doctor put me on beta blockers to try and manage my migraines. My blood pressure was always within healthy limits, usually around 110/70, on the beta blockers it dropped a little bit, but nothing drastic. My heart rate on the other hand?
Resting, it was 41-45 bmp, sitting and fidgeting it was 54-58bpm, and walking around it was 65-73. I’d have to really push hard at the gym to get it to 100 and it would drop back down so suddenly when I stopped I’d often get blue lips when doing cool down stretches.
My fingers and toes were always blue, I had chilblains in the middle of the summer.
When I asked my doctor if I should try Alpha Blockers because they don’t effect your heart he said “just drink a can of redbull 3-4 times a day”
So that’s what I did.
It wasn’t until I changed doctors and she asked me about my tea and coffee habits that it fully dawned on me just how much caffeine I was having.
I completely forgot tea has caffeine, I’d have 5-8 cups a day, plus 3 no-doze pills, 2 red bulls and a ristretto on most work days. On weekends I’d have 3-4 teas, 2-3 red bulls, 2 coffees and a caffeine based pre-workout.
My resting heart rate during all this was about 58bpm…and I slept like a log.
Anyway, my new doctor was horrified and I’m on alpha blockers now. Still no migraines, I’ve had to cut out everything caffeinated except 3 cups of tea a day, my resting heart rate is 67bpm…but now I have orthostatic hypotension which kinda sucks. Not as bad as taking trucker crack just so my he would remember to beat. I also struggle with intermittent bouts of insomnia now, which is weird.
I, too am horrified that an actual doctor with a doctorate in medicine would suggest that a patient pound multiple energy drinks instead of I dunno, using medicine that you even suggested.
My boss drinks like 8 energy drinks a day. Idk how he isn’t dead.
Maybe he is, but he just hasn’t come down from the high yet.
Same, caffeine content aside it’s like 100 grams in sugar every day from energy drinks. Gross
I used to chug multiple of those on the way home from school and didn’t feel a thing. I think we lose much resilience with age.
I am not, and was not, sensitive to caffeine in any way.
Hell, that can be proven just by the embarrassingly large amount of Mountain Dew I drank a day during that era of my life, which had absolutely zero effect on me.
Reporting in after having just come from Panera due to this article. Didn’t read article, and it might be click bait or might not. I do know that the drink in question is slapped right beside all the typical juices and sodas, and the label says “contains as much as our dark roast coffee” then below that, even less obvious it gives serving sizes & caffeine amounts. Call me crazy, but I doubt your average consumer is going to consider just how much caffeine might be in LEMONADE.
Panera is definitely losing this one. It could even be argued that they chose a product with that much caffeine and to not really advertise it based on the amounts of caffeine of the 30oz literally being a hair’s width away from the potential danger threshold.
Just looking at the photo in the article, it looks clear to me how much caffeine is in it:
Unclear if that’s a “before” or “after” photo though.
If I saw that, I wouldn’t really have any idea how much 260mg of caffeine is, compared to your average espresso shot. IMHO there probably should be some kind of upper limit to the amount of caffeine you can put in a drink (or at least be forced to call it something other than ‘lemonade’).
Yeah I doubt most coffee/tea/soda drinkers could tell you how much caffeine is in their drinks. 260mg means nothing to me without a baseline
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Panera Charged Lemonade: ~100mg/250mL
Panera Dark Roast Coffee: ~100mg/250mL
Panera Light Roast Coffee: ~162mg/250mL
Truth is, typical coffee at a coffee shop blows this charged lemonade out of the water on caffeine content.
Either Panera successfully marketed it and it was a tragic mistake, or Panera’s marketing at that location was messed up and they are at fault for her not being reasonably informed that it was a fully-caffeinated beverage.
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That’s less than I thought
No, it’s really just insane how much caffeine they put in this Panera bread lemonade.
Like seriously this is like drinking 4 energy drinks, literally more caffeine than a 5 hour energy shot and that’s at the small size. This is a horrifying amount of caffeine that they think people are drinking.
Edit: did the math because why not and drinking the 30 fl oz is like taking a 10 hour energy.
It’s about as caffeinated as an equal-size Dunkin iced coffee. It doesn’t seem insane to me. Panera has a non-coffee option for people who want to study with the cafe experience.
Most coffee has a lot higher than ~100mg/mL if we’re being honest unless it’s brewed weak or watered down with a lot of milk/cream.
…which is why the sign also says it’s as much caffeine as coffee.
That part is actually what’s misleading. I don’t know anybody who gets 20 or 30 oz cups of dark roast drip coffee. 10 oz is a more reasonable size. A more useful comparison would be that one lemonade is like having two or three dark roast coffees.
I’m guessing you’re not in the US with your thoughts on drink sizes, but remember that this happened in the US.
That part is actually what’s misleading. I don’t know anybody who gets 20 or 30 oz cups of dark roast drip coffee. 10 oz is a more reasonable size
A Dunkin Large is a 20oz hot coffee or 32oz Iced Coffee, and yes you can ask for “no ice” which is common enough they finally had to make it an upcharge. They ALSO sell an XL in my area, which is a 24oz hot. A 10oz here is called a “Small” and they don’t sell many of those. Usually just to people like my 80 year old mother-in-law.
A more useful comparison would be that one lemonade is like having two or three dark roast coffees.
…except that Panera’s standard size for hot coffee is a 16oz, and the large is 20oz. And we the complaint keeps saying “dark roast” because their light roast coffee matches these lemonades for total caffeine content (384 for a large vs 390 for a 30oz lemonade).
Nothing about this drink is anywhere out of proportion of a typical coffee drink in the US.
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Help me understand how much 260mg of caffeine is by comparing it to standard caffinated drinks
Searching for: caffeine content of common drinks
Generating answers for you…
Sure, I can help you with that. According to the Mayo Clinic1, the caffeine content of common drinks can vary depending on the type, brand, and brewing method. Here are some examples of how much caffeine is in different drinks, based on the average values from various sources2345:
A 12-ounce (355 mL) can of cola has about 34-44 mg of caffeine. A 12-ounce (355 mL) can of energy drink has about 71.9 mg of caffeine. An 8-ounce (237 mL) cup of brewed black coffee has about 80-150 mg of caffeine. An 8-ounce (237 mL) cup of brewed green tea has about 30 mg of caffeine. A 2-ounce (60 mL) shot of energy shot has about 215 mg of caffeine. So, if you consume 260 mg of caffeine, that is equivalent to:
About 6 to 8 cans of cola About 3 to 4 cans of energy drink About 2 to 3 cups of brewed black coffee About 9 to 10 cups of brewed green tea About one shot of energy shot I hope this helps you understand how much caffeine is in different drinks. Remember, the FDA recommends no more than 400 mg of caffeine per day for most adults. Too much caffeine can cause side effects such as insomnia, anxiety, and high blood pressure. So, drink responsibly and enjoy your caffeinated beverages in moderation. 😊
Why just be a stand in for AI? What do you bring to the conversation other than typing on behalf of a computer?
Just actually curious why?
Someone asked so I did it
If I wanted an Ai to hallucinate up bullshit I’d ask it myself.
Do they have that information on the drive through or the app though?
Edit: Yes, it’s visible. No, I don’t think it’s a good idea. Fuck corporate Panera, sue away. If it hurts our wages we’ll just protest corporate.
Why isn’t it a good idea to sell something with typical iced coffee caffeine content to people who want that much caffeine?
That’s a super good question, it’s not clear, but it’s also not clear if that’s how she bought the drink.
How visible is that sign from the order counter? Also, visually handicapped customers would have no idea.
It’s self serve, unless it was a drive through pickup order.
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To be fair, the average person is probably not going to really know how much caffeine is a lot of caffeine if you just give them the number, and the fact that people usually drink higher volumes of lemonade than dark coffee might lead to confusion as well. Plus, people don’t generally expect caffeine in lemonade, so it’s easy to imagine someone just going for the big flavor label and just figuring the smaller stuff is just nutrition labels and ignoring it.
I’m not really sure the best way to label this, it doesn’t seem like a great product idea at all tbh, but given the combination of potentially dangerous amounts of caffeine and it being a product one wouldn’t normally expect to contain any, I’d think that the labelling should be set up in a way as to be impossible to make assumptions about or ignore. Like, make it as big as the flavor label, in a box of a different color usually used for warnings like red or bright orange or something, and mention that the quantity of caffeine involved can be dangerous to those sensitive in addition to just the number.
I mean, the label already says “has as much caffeine as coffee”. Short of only selling caffeine at a dispensary with giant warnings, I’m not sure there’s any action that could or should be taken.
I think the trick is, yeah, on an ounce by ounce basis, as much caffeine as coffee, but people also aren’t drinking coffee 30 ounces at a time.
Point of comparison here, a caffeine pill like NoDoze is 200mg and the suggested dose is 1 every 3-4 hours.
The 30 ounces here is about the same as 2 caffeine pills.
on an ounce by ounce basis, as much caffeine as coffee
Much less caffeine than the typical coffee most of us drink.
but people also aren’t drinking coffee 30 ounces at a time
This lemonade has less caffeine than a Dunkin Large Iced Coffee, one of the most popular drinks in my area. Yeah, they are drinking coffee 20 oz at a time, which is all it takes to hit the same caffeine as 30oz of this lemonade.
Point of comparison here, a caffeine pill like NoDoze is 200mg and the suggested dose is 1 every 3-4 hours.
Counterpoint of comparison, the USDA rates 400mg as the healthy limit for daily intake. I could have a large charged lemonade every day and be comfortably under the “low-risk” line. And as I said elsewhere,
The 30 ounces here is about the same as 2 caffeine pills.
And a joint around here has the same active ingredient as about 20 THC pills. Just because something is in pill form doesn’t mean it’s a high dosage.
…also, I’d like to note that NoDoze suggests a dosage that hits over 800mg of caffeine a day, about three of these drinks. Also, the same dosage as a pot of coffee that MANY Americans drink every. single. morning.
As a caffeine fiend and energy drink afficianado, holy fucking shit that an obnoxious amount of caffeine in a fountain drink imo
I’m with you, this needs to be sold individually in cans not free pourable.
If you have a heart condition or generally just a high sensitivity to caffeine, it’s pretty important to know how much is a lot. The vast majority of people do not have any serious issues consuming 300mg or so of caffeine, so putting a bunch of big scary labels on this stuff just seems like overkill. For example, if you have a peanut allergy, it’s generally on you to check the allergen list in the fine print, or if you have Celiac disease, you need to either buy stuff specifically labeled gluten-free or confirm with a restaurant, manufacturer, etc.
The fact that all of their signs have not just one, but three separate indicators (“charged”, as much caffeine as coffee, and the specific caffeine amount) for anyone who might have a sensitivity is enough to show Panera’s due diligence in my opinion.
I do get your point that people wouldn’t automatically assume there’s caffeine in Panera’s random juice drinks, but caffeine is absolutely everywhere right now. I’d personally love for caffeine to be required to be listed in the nutrition label of drinks (or food that contains it) so you would know how much is in a Mountain Dew or Coke. But until that happens, I don’t see how Panera could be seen as liable in this situation.
400mg of caffeine is not potentially dangerous unless you’re one of the unlucky few people who have a heart condition. Even then, people with heart conditions aren’t necessarily dropping dead because they drank some caffeine.
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America is a place of personal feeedom but not personal accountability it seems.
Needs to be bigger and brighter imo. It looks like standard nutrition info which I omits never look at.
This new trend of soda that’s made of cane sugar and natural coloring is pretty stupid. It’s still a ton of calories and acid on your teeth. At Chipotle, cava, Panera, I’ll get sparkling water out of the Sprite tap and then flavor with a dash of whatever nu soda they have.
Panera, I feel, is 100% at fault here for trying to make soda and apparently ENERGY DRINKS seem innocuous and healthy.
Isn’t all soda essentially just sugar and food coloring?
And water.
Don’t forget the carbonic acid!
Some soda has various chemicals to trick your body into responding to sweetness, but no actual sugars
Zero sugar, extra diarreha.
extra boogers
That’s just the CO2 mixed in the water
like from the toilet?
BRAWNDO. ITS GOT WHAT PLANTS CRAVE
Y’all need water.
Water. Like out the toilet?
I said SPARKLING water
Lol
That ”sparkling water” is still carbonic acid.
Just drink water.
why does the sprite tap have sparkling water and not sprite?
Sprite is “sparkling water” plus syrup. There’s usually a second button on lemonade and lemon-lime soda which holds the syrup.
If restaurants just served sparkling water or mineral water I would be way more inclined to order drinks. But nooo, we have to have a society that normalizes liquid candy and alcohol 🥴
Restaurants do serve just soda/sparkling water, you just never asked for it before.
Classic sit down restaurants, yes. I’ve never seen it in a fast food restaurant.
“Do you have the button on the Sprite that leyd you get just soda water?”
“What? You want water?”
“Sparkling water, from the sprite fountain”
“So… Sprite?”
“No, I can see it from here, you know how you get water for water cups from the lemonade one? The Sprite has one of those extra buttons too.”
“I have to charge you for Sprite, you should just get a Sprite.”
“Look the line is backing up, can I just Sprite with no syrup please, I’ll pay for a soda.”
“I guess so…? I have to ask the manager.”
😫
Frankly, I’d totally count it as free like the regular water, at least if the soda fountain is self-serve.
Most do have it if they have a soda fountain. You might have to ask for it. You’re right that it’s not normalized, so you might have to ask for it, but I always served sparkling water on request, and that’s in a fairly rural town in South Dakota.
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I’ve heard people say this, but I never saw anything that would deter me. We always cleaned and sanitized the machines very well, and personally I never had a problem with the flavor
A lot of the fountain machines I’ve used also have a soda water secondary option on one of the drinks. There’s usually a plain water one, too.
I’ve seen plain (still) water, never sparkling water. Maybe it’s regional. Very few people in the US drink plain sparkling water.
I’ve worked at several restaurants here in the US, and they all had both sparkling and still water from the fountain
You also might be surprised by how many guests would order sparkling water
I was referring to the “soda water” as “sparkling water” per the OP. I don’t really know what the difference is tbh.
They’re the same thing.
But at least in some regions of the US it’s extremely unpopular. I’ve never seen a soda fountain with a button for soda/sparkling/carbonated water. The only way you get that is if one of the sodas is out of syrup.
I don’t think there is a difference, though I could be wrong. Soda water is just water and carbonic acid. Sparkling water I’ve tried tasted like that plus some fruit flavouring but no sugar, so I’ve assumed that plain sparkling water is just soda water.
I live in the US and get sparkling water from the beverage fountain frequently. It’s usually there as a separate little lever on one of the sodas. Maybe you just aren’t noticing it. I’ve found it to be pretty common.
I agree it may be regional. Seltzer is very popular in NYC, where I am. I once overhead flight attendants on a flight discussing how much seltzer they had to have on hand because they were headed to NYC.
oh Ive never seen it served that way. Thanks
"This new trend "
It’s not really new. It’s that the cane sugar sodas cost more to make, which means cost more to buy. You can taste the difference, but you have to actually care to be willing to pay the increased price.
Jones has always done it. Coca Cola used to release it “Mexican Coca Cola” in my area every few months at $3/bottle.
It’s newer at fast casual restaurants
That’s insane. I hope not only that they win the lawsuit, but that companies understand stimulants can be harder (even dangerous) on some people.
The way caffeine affects me does not risk my life, but it can get ugly as I have a mental health condition that gets triggered by stimulants. It is so common to rely on caffeine nowadays, and it’s present in many beverages and snacks. People forget it is still a drug.
There should be labels and there should be less of a presence of caffeine (and other legal drugs) in unrelated products. I mean, it’s normal if coffee has caffeine, it shouldn’t be normal that a lemonade has caffeine.
The beverage contains 390mg, which is equivalent to 6.5 cups of coffee. I hope this will be used as a case study for other businesses on how to properly label your drinks and further increase transparancy about ingredients used in beverages.
There should be labels and there should be less of a presence of caffeine (and other legal drugs) in unrelated products. I mean, it’s normal if coffee has caffeine, it shouldn’t be normal that a lemonade has caffeine.
I disagree. Don’t get me wrong - fuck Panera in general, but I’m all for more products being offered so long as they’re properly labeled which this was. Also with a name like charged lemonade it heavily omplies it’s not normal lemonade. There’s an argument to be made here about personal responsibilities and reading labels.
No, the responsibility is solely on the consumer. It’s clearly labeled as having caffeine. No one is forcing anybody to ingest anything against their will. It’s not the company nor governments responsibility to protect oneself against their own stupidity.
I’m not trying to blame the woman and agree that it should have been labeled (mostly because of the quantity of caffeine in the drink and less that it was there at all) but if a product is called “Charged Food Item” and you knew you were under doctors orders to avoid certain things wouldn’t you ask what was in the item to make it charged?
Charged could represent electrolytes. Naming schemes can be nonsensical sometimes. What is the “extreme” in extreme burrito? Would that also be caffeine? Or more cheese, a different type of cheese? Some other ingredient? What about chocolate delight? Is delight an ingredient? Is there an ingredient that specifically makes the “delight” part? Sometimes naming schemes are about the process used to create it rather than what is in the food itself; see Triscuit
Someone with food restrictions absolutely has some due diligence on their plate, but calling out a name to divulge or suggest a specific ingredient (when the ingredients name iself is not used) is a hindsight “obviously that’s what it means” take.
Bugles is another great example where I do not expect instruments in my food. But there is the sweet sweet music of the crunch
It’s a bullshit lawsuit, there are signs in front of the lemonade which clearly say “contains as much caffeine as our dark roast coffee” also it’s in all their in store advertising of the product. These parents just want someone to blame, that’s it.
honestly the statement “contains as much caffeine as our dark roast coffee” is misleading since that would be comparing an 8oz coffee to 8oz of lemonade. if you drink the coffee you’re most likely getting a cup that is 8-16oz. however the standard soft drink size is 20-30oz which would mean one cup is basically your daily serving of caffeine.
if i saw the sign saying “same strength as our coffee” i would assume it’s one cup of coffee is equal to one cup of lemonade. who would only fill their cups half way? it’s insane to sell one cup that is almost 100% the daily value while it’s known bad side effects can happen after 400mg.
And there’s pictures going around of stores where those signs are missing.
I’m defending Panera in a lot of my replies here, but it’s because we don’t know if it’s a bullshit lawsuit. All we know is that the OP article is bullshit and I caught it in a lie.
Ok well even if somehow this particular Panera was devoid of any information about the lemonade, which let’s be honest that is going to be hard enough to prove since the person who was there that day is dead. That doesn’t negate the fact that if you have some kind of health problem associated with certain foods, in this case caffeine, then you should be checking every ingredient of anything you eat especially from a restaurant. If you are buying a product called “charged lemonade” you shouldn’t just expect its going to be standard fare when you had no hand in making the product. Literally anyone with a food allergy deals with this shit on a daily basis, and the only time the restaurant should be to blame is if you specifically asked if said ingredient was in the food and they lie or forget to omit it from the dish.
Ok well even if somehow this particular Panera was devoid of any information about the lemonade, which let’s be honest that is going to be hard enough to prove since the person who was there that day is dead
Sure. I bet there are witnesses who would say one way or the other, but you’re mostly right.
That doesn’t negate the fact that if you have some kind of health problem associated with certain foods, in this case caffeine, then you should be checking every ingredient of anything you eat especially from a restaurant
In fairness, that’s not realistic. If I order a lobster and it has lobster in it, that’s on me. If I order french fries and they secretly infuse it with lobster without advertising it, then it’s on me.
The argument many people are making is that Lemonade “doesn’t have caffeine in it”. And she wasn’t restricted and unable to consume caffeine, she was restricted from large quantities (enough that some folks aren’t sure she even died from the drink, but that’s another discussion). Expecting a random beverage to have coffee-level caffeine with NO notice is definitely unreasonable.
If you are buying a product called “charged lemonade” you shouldn’t just expect its going to be standard fare when you had no hand in making the product
As many have said, “charged” is often used to refer to electrolytes. I mean, look at this.. The word "charged "alone really is not enough, just like the word “house special” added before fries doesn’t mean I should expect there might be lobster in them.
Literally anyone with a food allergy deals with this shit on a daily basis, and the only time the restaurant should be to blame is if you specifically asked if said ingredient was in the food and they lie or forget to omit it from the dish.
Except still happens, and if I did my due diligence, the restaurant is usually responsible. That’s why they have nutritional-content menus and a well-trained restaurant worker takes you VERY seriously if you mention a food allergy. The issue is that sometimes it shouldn’t be on you to mention food allergies. I like lobster allergies as an example. Should I immediately say “I have a lobster allergy” when I walk into an Ice Cream Parlor? Is it my fault if I have an allergic reaction to lobster when I order the Chocolate Chunky Monkey?
It did have a notice, they are advertised as having caffeine. So one of two things is going on here: either she just didn’t think it was going to harm her, or she was completely oblivious to all the marketing for it. There is really no proof that the lemonade is what killed her; this is just her parents wanting someone to blame. Unless they can prove without a doubt there was negligence on Panera’s part and that it led to their daughter’s death, then this lawsuit is frivolous.
Charged could represent electrolytes.
Tbh, that’s what I assumed from the headline. Expected something like that “water” that accidentally included Hydrazine due to the woo-woo they did to make it special
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Try to cut salt out as much as possible too.
If reducing caffeine does the trick, you don’t want to also cut out salt pre-emptively. There are dangers to cutting salt and it should be a last resort if nothing else works to reduce blood pressure.
What are the dangers? Last I saw yes you need sodium, but it’s an extremely small amount per day to stay healthy. So little that if you weren’t trying to diet you would probably surpass the amount after your first meal.
For me my pcp+PharmD were trying to dial in my bp meds, but my numbers were being stubborn. So they recommended I also cut out salt too.
So a month passes and I go back for labs (one of my bp meds had potential kidney side effects) – my sodium and potassium came in too low. They asked if I was having more water/liquid/diuretics, anything else in combination to help explain the drastic drop, but nope.
And I kid you not, they were like yeah maybe don’t cut out all salt from your diet.
Yeah salt is a super necessary mineral for the body. Like it’s wildly important.
But also salt is wildly effective as a flavor enhancer and so easy to go overboard with. There is actually an old wives tale in the food sciences industry that when setting the average salt intake levels, they decided actually to go with a little under the recommended amount cause they figured everyone would go over just by a little anyways.
You need sodium to stay hydrated and not trace amounts but significant amounts. You lose salt in sweat. If you’re not replenishing it then your body will retain less and less water leasing to chronic dehydration.
But not too much! Some salt is good, but not the absurd amounts you’ll find in prepared food from the food service industry.
Also, make sure the salt you use has iodine in it. Lots of people don’t get that
If you eat only home cooked meals then yes definitely don’t cut it out completely but if you eat out at restaurants or any processed foods then you’re almost guaranteed to get all the salt you need.
Maybe more than people need, but this is person specific
Is there actually solid science behind that? I had a friend who swore that it really has no effect, and when I personally looked into it, it seemed that a large portion of the population sees higher blood pressure from it, but for most it’s a short term increase.
I think at the end of the day, moderation is what’s most important.
Just an fyi, coffee typically has as much or more caffeine than energy drinks do. The reason why energy drinks feel like they have a lot of caffeine is because they’re typically consumed in greater quantities than coffee (8~12oz for coffee, energy drinks are typically >16oz). So your energy drink has more caffeine because there’s more drink, but when it comes to caffeine-per-ounce, they’re pretty similar. You’re probably getting the same amount of caffeine you were if you only drank those little 8oz red bulls or if you drink 2+ cups of coffee.
Haven’t been to Panera in a while, had no idea they were selling these drinks. The article makes mention that people who have the condition she had are typically OK with caffeine but that energy drinks are more dangerous because they contain other stimulants apart from the caffeine, like taurine. There’s really no fair comparison between coffee and energy drinks because of all the other added stimulants in energy drinks
Why? Still caffeine
One Celsius has 200 mg of caffeine while one espresso drink from home has about 80 mg. Sometimes I still feel tired after drinking my coffee but I definitely feel less jittery and stressed.
My doctor got me off caffeine. It was tough, but I learned that it wasn’t actually helping me stay alert and awake. I was just addicted to it and needed another fix. I feel better now. I drink one green tea a day now. Check out this vid from The Infographics Show
It’s like comparing an underground pool to one of those blue shell pools, it’s still a pool, it’s just ones got waaaaayy more pool in it than the other.
lol
had a heart condition
Does personal responsibility not exist anymore? The menu and advertising for the drink clearly show that it has a high caffeine content.
and was not aware of the drink’s caffeine content, which exceeded that of cans of Red Bull and Monster energy drinks combined
The drink has about 260mg of caffeine which, while high, isn’t outrageous or unsafe to most healthy adults by any means.
Maybe someone can show me how I’m being a heartless arsehole but I can’t find any negligent action on Panera’s part that would make them to blame.
"Katz had a heart condition called long QT syndrome type 1 and avoided energy drinks at the recommendation of her doctors, according to the filing.
… “She was very, very vigilant about what she needed to do to keep herself safe,” Conroy said. “I guarantee if Sarah had known how much caffeine this was, she never would have touched it with a 10-foot pole.”
… The charged lemonade was “offered side-by-side with all of Panera’s non-caffeinated and/or less caffeinated drinks” and was advertised as a “plant-based and clean” beverage that contained as much caffeine as the restaurant’s dark roast coffee…
…The charged lemonade also has guarana extract, another stimulant, as well as the equivalent of nearly 30 teaspoons of sugar"
You either did not read even half the article, or you did and then completely forgot or ignored the contents. Which was it?
I have a lobster allergy. I am very, very vigilant about it because I don’t like being rushed to the ER. I had imitation crab meat that happened to have lobster in it once. Didn’t even think to ask. That was my fault.
The charged lemonade was “offered side-by-side with all of Panera’s non-caffeinated and/or less caffeinated drinks
I’d love to see a picture of that. At my local Panera it’s right next to the ice tea and has a giant sign on it about being highly caffeinated. There’s a few pictures around about them behind the counter with no visible sign, so lacking more info this above quote works in Panera’s favor for me.
advertised as a “plant-based and clean” beverage
Let me complete the sentence. It’s advertised as “Plant-based, clean caffeine powered by guarana & green coffee extract”. The quote provided in the article comes from the posted caffeine notice. The other ones are advertised as “Plant-based and Clean with as much caffeine as our Dark Roast coffee”. And the plaintiff is trying to argue “it has more caffeine than the dark roast”, which is one of those “misleading truths” I’ve gotten into elsewhere. It’s less caffeinated per ounce, and not the highest caffeine drink they sell.
…The charged lemonade also has guarana extract, another stimulant, as well as the equivalent of nearly 30 teaspoons of sugar
For guarana, it’s on the sign but not advertised as well. If the entire complaint was that she couldn’t have guarana, they might have a point. If the complaint is that the sign was missing or hidden, they would have a point. Every piece of signage online or in-store I’ve seen they have the word “Charged”, they mention that it’s caffeinated.
I don’t want to say personal responsibility… fuck that. Somebody died. It’s a tragedy, but short of more info than in the article, not wrongful death. Thing is, this could be like the McDonalds coffee thing where a lot of people left out that the coffee temperature was calibrated wrong and the lady got third degree burns from it.
but short of more info than in the article, not wrongful death. Thing is, this could be like the McDonalds coffee thing where a lot of people left out that the coffee temperature was calibrated wrong and the lady got third degree burns from it.
Exactly, there are a billion things that might have happened, accidental or intentional, local or systemic. Which is why when people immediately presume it was her fault for not checking, it’s pretty gross. Especially when it’s clear they would only have to have read less than half the article to know there were potential failures on Panera’s part which may justify discovery, which means the case needs to be filed to find out. That is, reading the linked article might have even partly answered their question, assuming it was genuinely asked.
All we really know for sure is that she wouldn’t have drunk it if she knew it were caffeinated + guarana, and certainly wouldn’t have poured a whole 30oz for herself if she suspected it, and that she clearly has a habit of checking already. So either something went tragically wrong at the wrong time, or multiple things did. And it clearly extends further than the tired “personal responsibility” talking point implying the victim’s laziness and/or incompetence.
Which is why when people immediately presume it was her fault for not checking, it’s pretty gross
Agreed. Even if it were a simple mistake, somebody died and that fact should be taken seriously. Never blame the dead person. The question, then, is whether to blame anyone at all.
That said, the article is not very convincing to me that Panera did anything wrong. It could be because the argument is truncated, but some of the quotes in the article are dead guilty of giving a fairly one-sided view of the reality.
What I see as a failure would have been missing or hidden signage, as some Panera locations keep that drink behind the counter. The quote directly states that’s not the case here. And in the same move, pointing out it was near “less caffeinated” drinks, it’s obvious that dispenser was near at least the iced tea and sodas. IF it was sitting next to iced tea and had the standard signage (posted by others here), I don’t see Panera having done anything wrong. But we don’t know if those statements are all true, that’s just what I extrapolate from quotes and explanations about the complaint.
All we really know for sure is that she wouldn’t have drunk it if she knew it were caffeinated + guarana, and certainly wouldn’t have poured a whole 30oz for herself if she suspected it, and that she clearly has a habit of checking already. So either something went tragically wrong at the wrong time, or multiple things did
“Gone wrong” can still be a tragic mistake. As a lot of people said “I don’t read signs if I’m in a hurry”. I’ve ordered food items before that the menu clearly said had ingredients I was dangerously allergic to and I missed it until I received the food item. Short of verbally asking “are you able to consume 200mg sugar? Are you able to consume 360mg caffeine?” of every ingredient of every food product in every restaurant, tragic things will still occasionally happen. And if we did THAT, someone might well say “yeah yeah whatever”. And if THAT did happen and someone died, it’s still not appropriate to bring up personal responsibility.
Ah yes “personal responsibility” the rallying cry of empathy free assholes everywhere. And yes you are an asshole for that victim blaming shit opinion of yours.
I mean, personal responsibility IS a thing, it just depends on context. In this case, there seems to be plenty of reason to think the company is at fault.
There’s a gulf between “personal responsibility” and “wrongful death” called “tragedy”.
I don’t think anyone should be blaming the dead girl. But the limited evidence I’ve seen so far doesn’t make Panera look guilty either.
It does. But we still have safety stickers and ingredient lists, etc for a really damn good reason.
Absolutely. Legally speaking, the warnings/labeling are crucial. And they depend heavily on context. Using a common name like lemonade in a unique way puts the threshold even higher.
Also legally speaking, people blaming the heart condition fail to understand US tort law. The responsibility falls to the provider, not the victim, even if they are unusually fragile (have a heart condition). This is the eggshell skull aka eggshell plaintiff doctrine, very well established in US law.
And if you dive deep into the train of thought of what happens without it (companies blame everything on too fragile/frail of people), most people find it to be reasonable.
The provider must make it safe for everyone OR place adequate protections/warnings that make it very clear who it’s not safe for. Seems like Panera failed on both accounts.
If there’s a big sign that says “Plant-based, clean caffeine powered by guarana & green coffee extract” with “30 fl oz | 530 cal | 389 mg caffeine” on the sign she was staring at when she poured her drink, that might make things a bit complicated.
The Panera signage seems obvious enough about caffeine that (assuming the signage was in place) I can’t imagine any more correct action Panera could have taken short of having a person stand there asking people if they have heart conditions.
I mean, imitation crab meat often has trace lobster in it and nobody advertises that. It falls under “let our associates know if you have any dietary restrictions or food allergies”. Did she say “I can’t have caffeine” and then they let her fill her cup with charged lemonade? This is a beverage that is marketed on being caffeinated, and every piece of advertising, signage, etc features the caffeinated nature prominently because it’s a major selling point of it.
Nobody should be blaming her. But unless this Panera did stuff very different from the Panera standard, it was sufficient.
And you’re right about the legal implications of her medical condition. But I don’t see many people suggesting it’s her fault because she had a heart condition.
260mg is in the 20oz version, but I’m pretty sure you can get whatever giant sized drink you want. The article said she had a 30oz drink which has 390mg of caffeine. Also, even just 260mg of caffeine is WAY more caffeine than anyone needs in one drink, even if its considered “safe”. There’s literally no reason for it. Something that’s self serve and has that much caffeine should have a giant warning on the front and require a waiver to be signed first. I looked up the picture of the machine where the drink is served, and it says at the very bottom how much caffeine is in it, but if someone is on their way to work or class then they probably aren’t stopping to read the literature on what they thought was just plain lemonade
A waiver for a 260mg drink? A large monster can is close to that. A Bang Energy is 300mg.
Should they be that strong? Up to you to decide. But saying you need a waiver for something that’s already widely available is nonsense.
All of those should require a waiver. Better yet, they shouldn’t exist at all at that strength. Just because they are widely available doesn’t mean they are safe. There is literally no reason anyone ever needs to consume 260mg of caffeine in one sitting. If someone can’t wake up with less than 300mg of caffeine in their system then they need to seek immediate medical attention because they are into full on addiction at that point.
My googling says 160mg for a 500ml monster. I wouldn’t call that close.
The larger Monster is 24oz/700ml - the one with a screw top - and it has 240mg.
I’ve never seen a 700ml energi drink. Must be a regional thing.
Also, even just 260mg of caffeine is WAY more caffeine than anyone needs in one drink, even if its considered “safe”.
That’s the caffeine content in a large hot coffee from Dunkin Donuts, one of the most popular orders in the my region of the world. Putting it proportion, this lemonade is about 2/3 of the caffeine, oz for oz, of black coffee. Have you seen a 30oz drink? They’re fairly massive.
I looked up the picture of the machine where the drink is served, and it says at the very bottom how much caffeine is in it, but if someone is on their way to work or class then they probably aren’t stopping to read the literature on what they thought was just plain lemonade
I’ve accidentally ordered food I was allergic to, so I get it. There’s absolutely nothing a company can do to be 100% sure nobody will ever order food that will harm them.
I also made the mistake. Personally I don’t care, especially since I was looking for a flavor shot with soda, but these are in the same dispensers that used to hold juice, in the same spot, and there probably still are some regular juices there. I suppose we should read every sign, but it’s not in human nature. Who would think to check the caffeine content of what appears to be juice?
I imagine that signs are posted, but it’s set up to be misleading. Panera missed the opportunity for splashy marketing (at least where I was) which could have both sold more and communicated better
Panera missed the opportunity for splashy marketing (at least where I was)
Interesting. All I knew about this stuff before this article was that it was highly caffeinated. I haven’t tried it (and don’t plan to. I like coffee) but it’s really obvious in some areas.
was advertised as a “plant-based and clean” beverage that contained as much caffeine as the restaurant’s dark roast coffee, according to photos of both the menu and beverage dispensers in the store
But at 390 milligrams, the large Charged Lemonade has more caffeine than any size of Panera’s dark roast coffee, the complaint says — numbers that the nutrition facts on Panera’s website confirm. It also has guarana extract, another stimulant, as well as the equivalent of nearly 30 teaspoons of sugar
The marketing was factually wrong and very misleading.
The complete quotes in the marketing (the article made the odd decision to quote PART OF the caffeine description out-of-context) are:
“Plant-based, clean caffeine powered by guarana & green coffee extract”.
and
“Plant-based and Clean with as much caffeine as our Dark Roast coffee”
I would call that marketing accurate and correct. Except one thing… It’s a fact that one ounce of their lemonade has significantly less caffeine (about 2/3) than one ounce of their dark roast coffee, and dramatically less than their light roast coffee. Could you have guessed that from the quotes? Because my first point of note is that they’re incorrect about it having “as much caffeine as our Dark Roast”.
the large Charged Lemonade has more caffeine than any size of Panera’s dark roast coffee
This is also both misleading and carefully worded. It’s comparing a 16oz cup to a 30oz cup, both sold with unlimited refills, and leaving out that the Charged Lemonade is not even the highest-caffeine item on the menu.
I would say the article is factually wrong and misleading. The problem is, we don’t know the full details of the complaint, which might actually be valid. The article, however, is not doing it justice.
The article claims it has 390 mg and was sold alongside noncaffeinated drinks, though I’m not clear exactly how misleading they were about the amount of caffeine in there. I agree with you – it seems wild to me that an adult with a heart condition like that wouldn’t check any caffeinated drink to see the caffeine quantity before drinking it…
it seems wild to me that an adult with a heart condition like that wouldn’t check any caffeinated drink to see the caffeine quantity before drinking it…
The issue is that she didn’t know it had caffeine, presumably because it wasn’t obvious when ordering it. She may have just thought “charged lemonade” was the name they gave their regular lemonade drink and didn’t think anything of it. I wouldn’t think to ask for the caffeine content of a lemonade, either.
I suspected this at first, but the article put its foot in its mouth clearly pointing out that these are in the self-serve section. The pics going around show standard marketing on the dispenser saying it’s high caffeine. If THOSE were missing, now you’ve got a valid complaint. But the article says nothing about that.
Does it change your mind if there’s a large sign on the dispenser saying it’s highly caffeinated and including big bold caffeine content numbers?
We don’t know if the sign was there in this tragedy, but we know it’s standard Panera marketing to have it there.
If there’s a sign clearly indicating high caffeine content, sadly I think that’s on her. If there isn’t, then I can see Panera being somewhat liable. It seems similar to food allergies, where people who are allergic to, say, peanuts have to check food labels and food companies have to clearly label the presence of peanuts.
When I hear “charged” lemonade I assume it’s caffeinated but maybe not everyone has that understanding.
If I were on a Jury (never happen), “charged” wouldn’t be enough for me, but clearly visible signage would.
I don’t know how much responsibility I’d put on her, honestly. There’s a lot worse things that have gone un-remarked for decades. Like, did you know that “imitation crab meat” often has lobster in it? And is often sold in things with “crab” in the name? I’m highly allergic to lobster and not allergic to crab. I still only get things with “crab” in them at places I know I can trust not to use said imitation meat.
So I look at that, and it’s hard for me to fault Panera for it especially because I can see how much they’re marketing it as highly caffeinated online and in my local Panera. Not impossible to fault them (I’d have to see/hear the whole story), but difficult.
I’d say it depends. I’ve never seen an ad for panera lemonade, and I don’t need to look at a menu to know what lemonade is. Many drinks sometimes have caffeine, like root beer or orange soda. You have to be careful about which brand you’re getting. There are zero caffeinated lemonades on the market besides lemonade flavored energy drinks and Panera.
260mg is the small. The large has 390mg. 400mg is where the fda says adverse effects begin for normal people. That is a lot of caffeine under any circumstance.
Did she order a lemonade and get a max dose energy drink, or did she specifically order a max dose energy drink?
400mg is where the fda says adverse effects begin for normal people.
That’s not exactly right. 400mg is the line the FDA says NO adverse affects happen for normal people. They’re not saying >400mg is dangerous, they’re saying <400mg is safe and healthy.
Considering the drinking patterns of caffeine (one big boost, not something you drink all day unless you’re from New England), that makes sense to me. When I walk into a Dunkies and get a large Iced, it’s 400mg of caffeine.
Correct. Same goes with allergies etc.
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Because the people who have even only skimmed the article or the quotes in this thread know the article already answers basic questions about personal responsibility.
You did read the linked article, right?
They way I learned Dr. Pepper has caffeine is a friend in high school with a similar undiagnosed condition dying after drinking one.
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I’m not sure where you live, but most of the sodas available here don’t have caffeine unless they’re colas. Fruit flavored sodas and root beers are almost never caffeinated, except for Mellow Yellow which I also learned too late that it had caffeine, as I grabbed one late at night and then couldn’t sleep.
It was less tragic than someone dying, but having it be a guessing game whether something has caffeine and how much is dangerous and it needs much clearer labels.
Of course, we really shouldn’t be drinking soda in the first place.
Jeez, that’s terrifying.
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There used to be a product called Redline: White Heat from VPX (same people that make bang with the unhinged CEO). It had to be taken off the market because it had an amphetamine analogue in it called AMP Citrate or DMBA.
One scoop of that stuff made me feel like I was going to die. My friend who took Ritalin at the time told me it was more powerful than any other stimulant he had before.
It’s crazy to think this was openly available at health supplement stores for years before the FDA caught wind.
The 30 oz has 390mg of caffeine! That’s four regular cups of coffee. I’m a big guy, and that would mess me up.
This is so saddening, I can’t imagine what her loved ones must be going through. ☹️
