• 9488fcea02a9@sh.itjust.works
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    10 months ago

    I’m not a dog breed expert, but…

    The other day an agressive dog that looked like a pitbull, suddenly lunged at me barking loudly… It was about 10ft away from me but still scared the shit out of me

    The owner yanked the dog back on its leash and i thought, “FML, the only thing that saved me from a deadly mauling was a 3/4 inch wide piece of nylon with a metal clip the guy bought off amazon for $5”

      • jopepa@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Hippos are super aggressive, territorial, and will bite a crocodiles in half. It’s amazing that’s supposed to be a cute, disarming nickname for a breed notorious for the same traits.

      • snipgan@kbin.social
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        10 months ago

        To be fair most won’t, but they definitely can and do.

        Especially when they are jaws on legs that are more inclined compared to other dogs.

        • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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          10 months ago

          Yup. I’ve crunched the numbers before, and it’s something like 1 in 10,000 pit bulls will attack a human or other companion animal every year. It’s not likely for any given pit to attack a person (which I can anecdotally support–they’re obnoxiously friendly and loving in my experience), but it’s also like 10 times more than the next most vicious breed. In my opinion, it’s not worth euthanizing every member of the breed, but it is worth neutering every one. We don’t need dog breeds, especially ones responsible for over half of the violent attacks on people and other animals.

          Of course, I’m in support of neutering all companion animals to reduce the stray population and ease the strain on shelters, regardless of breed or species. Breed specific laws are only one step towards fixing the larger problem.

          • Semi-Hemi-Demigod@kbin.social
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            10 months ago

            Of course, I’m in support of neutering all companion animals to ease the stray population and the strain on shelters, regardless of breed or species. Breed specific laws are only one step towards fixing the larger problem.

            Bob Barker is smiling down on you from heaven for this

          • workerONE@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            Don’t you think that pit bull attacks are dangerous and cause medical trauma which leads to reporting of the attack? I think it’s likely that they don’t attack people more than any other dog breed. I was bit by a black lab mix. I didn’t report it to anyone. If it had been a pit bull I probably would have needed medical attention.

          • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            As you’ve pointed out the dogs are perfectly capable of being lovey couch potatoes. The problem isn’t the dog it’s the people. The breed has a reputation. And the people who like that are just going to move on to the next breed after this one is gone.

          • Ataraxia@sh.itjust.works
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            10 months ago

            I must be unlucky because I have yet not run into one that didn’t try to kill me if not for the muzzle or them being a puppy or a fence.

        • Seraph@kbin.social
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          10 months ago

          The actual issue is that’s it’s a degenerative disease in dogs of similar breeds. At some point they get old and less able to recognize friend from foe. That might be ok if it weren’t for the jaws you mentioned.

          • snipgan@kbin.social
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            10 months ago

            Exactly.

            I’d go one step farther and even say if they even had the same amount of attacks as other dogs, had no possible mental diseases, and all want to caring homes I would still put restrictions/ban on them.

            They are just too large to handle, too big of a bite to brush off, and end up in dog attacks a lot. That’s enough for me.

              • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4977763/

                That’s a great article…

                However the only examples of aggression being related to breed is with Daschands and Yorkies, although the study says that’s likely just to that specific gene also making legs shorter.

                While there is a genetic component to aggression, it’s variation is pretty standard amongst all dogs, except the tiny ones who may have accidentally been selected for it.

                But someone asked you for a source for a cognitive thing and you just randomly linked an article about how breed doesn’t determine behavior?

                Did you know what that article was about before you linked it?___

                • Seraph@kbin.social
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                  10 months ago

                  However, it is also notable that a subset of large breeds carries the chrX reduced-fear/aggression and increased-size variants in perfect LD.

                  I know reading is hard, friend! I linked that as it was the most interesting thing I found while looking off there were other degenerative diseases common in pitbulls, while not being pitbull specific. Did you think me finding evidence contrary to my beliefs would result in me hiding it?

                  I’d give you snarky “let me Google that for you” on the degenerative diseases as they’re genuinely interesting, but I guess you’ll never know what they’re about since you can type a comment but not use a search engine.

      • squiblet@kbin.social
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        10 months ago

        It’s funny they call them hippos considering that hippos are extremely dangerous and vicious wild animals.

    • gamer@lemm.ee
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      10 months ago

      I was walking my dog through my neighborhood once, and one of my stupid ass neighbors had his dog loose in his garage with the door open across the street. When it saw me, it charged at us, barking aggressively. It didn’t attack me, it just stood a few feet away baring its teeth and barking while his overweight owner waddled over to it armed with a sandle. I think it was a labrador.

      If it was a pitbull though I’d likely be missing a limb or two today.

  • snipgan@kbin.social
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    10 months ago

    Unsurprising. Large “power breeds” like pit bulls I have always found questionable to have.

    No restrictions or licenses? No muzzles at least?

    A good thing they banned them.

    Though I still dislike the outright malice and hate I see when a pit bull in a photo might be doing nothing but staring at a sunset. A bit hate crazy.

    • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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      10 months ago

      Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.

      • crapwittyname@lemm.ee
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        10 months ago

        If you’re a dog owner and you’re paying attention, then your personal experience should include the following truth: any dog can go postal. If you then combine this with the knowledge that pitbulls are much more deadly than other dogs when being agressive, then you must reach the conclusion that this breed should be banned, even though that is admittedly a sad conclusion.

          • WldFyre@lemm.ee
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            10 months ago

            Every dog on the planet is more aggressive than all other dogs on the planet?

            • Instigate@aussie.zone
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              10 months ago

              Well surely it’s a spectrum that people are advocating an arbitrary line be placed on. Once this breed is gone, what about the next most aggressive breed? They then become the most aggressive breed and there’ll be calls to weed them out too. Dogs kill more humans than any other non-human vertebrate in the world by a very long shot - getting rid of one breed isn’t going to reduce that number to zero.

              To clarify, I’m not against the move of banning the breed at all, I’m just acutely aware that it’s making an arbitrary distinction.

              • Tavarin@lemmy.ca
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                10 months ago

                Pitbulls are deadlier than all other breeds combined. They are 10 times as deadly as the next most aggressive breed. You don’t need to pull out the slippery slope fallacy, when the line is very clearly at pitbulls.

              • Carlo@lemmy.ca
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                10 months ago

                Dogs kill more humans than any other non-human vertebrate in the world by a very long shot

                I looked into this, based on some other comments. Turns out it’s snakes. Various sources list dogs at between 13,000 and 35,000 deaths per year, and snakes in a range of 75,000-100,000.

                Edit: but if we’re talking one species, dogs might edge out the deadliest snake. Really hard to say, based on the data I was able to find.

              • themajesticdodo@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                That is not a good argument, it is dishonest and disingenuous.

                You’re actually using the same logic people used to try and avoid gay marriage.

        • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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          10 months ago

          Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.

          • Tavarin@lemmy.ca
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            10 months ago

            I know a handful of pits who have bitten and severely injured people. For your positive anecdote there is a negative to match.

            • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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              10 months ago

              Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.

                • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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                  10 months ago

                  Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.

          • originalucifer@moist.catsweat.com
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            10 months ago

            i am a dog owner, and know many dog owners, and have personally known 2 neighbors who lost pets due to pits who went ‘postal’

            anecdotes gunna anecdote

          • crapwittyname@lemm.ee
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            10 months ago

            Can this possibly be true?
            If a dog switches to aggressive mode and stops listening to commands, trying to attack (another dog, a cat, a deer, a bird, a human) that’s what I mean by “going postal”. In most cases they are restrained on leash. The outcome, and the target (for the sake of this argument) are not important. It is not possible to predict accurately when they will do this.

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          Pitbulls are not the deadliest dog out there. Not by a long shot. They’re just the ones people like to make aggressive.

          • crapwittyname@lemm.ee
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            10 months ago

            Except they are, though. They’re bred to be as deadly as possible. This is a verifiable fact.

            • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              There are dogs that are bred to help bring down bears. Some asshole breeding for noise and muscle does not make the most dangerous dog.

              • crapwittyname@lemm.ee
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                10 months ago

                Pitbulls are the most deadly breed of dog, to humans. This is a solid concrete fact. There are reasons for this, and evidence to back it up. Your thing about bears is irrelevant, unless those dogs have been proven to be more dangerous to humans than pitbulls, which they haven’t.

                • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  Sure, just ignore all context. Big number bad. Keep playing whack a mole wondering why the problem never gets fixed.

          • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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            10 months ago

            It’s important to understand what people mean when they say things. These people aren’t saying that pit bulls are more physically capable of killing people than any other breed, they’re saying that they’re responsible for more deaths than any other breed.

            It’s a bit like saying the flu is deadler than ebola. Ebola may have a higher mortality rate, but it’s so much less likely to infect people that it has a much smaller kill count.

      • 1bluepixel@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        People with access to verifiable data overlook the appearance of safety to express a legitimate concern about a breed that’s demonstrably more likely to kill? What dorks!

        • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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          10 months ago

          Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.

          • gears@sh.itjust.works
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            10 months ago

            My childhood pitbull bit me in the face and I have permanent face scarring from it. I had to get 60+ stitches to reconstruct my face.

            It’s not a valid point to say “most don’t attack people” when the breed is much more likely to attack a person compared to other breeds. Then it’s made worse by the fact they’ve been bred to be extra good at attacking.

  • JTskulk@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    Every couple of weeks I feed mine a toddler, it seems to keep the violent tendencies away.

  • evanuggetpi@lemmy.nz
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    10 months ago

    I used to have a Pitbull, such a beautiful girl, who one day chased and killed one of our cats she’d grown up with. My friend had her brother, such a beautiful boy, who one day chased and killed one of their cats.

    Last week, on my lifestyle block, two Pitbulls appeared and killed my chickens before I could stop them. I chased the fuckers off but haven’t found where they came from.

    That is all.

    • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      That’s not just Pitbull behavior though. That’s called prey drive and a lot of breeds have that. Some everyone expects like Greyhounds and Bulldogs. But it’s also present in breeds like Golden Retrievers, Bassett Hounds, and Irish Setters. Are we going to ban Golden’s next? They can also feature the fun perk, protectiveness, where they go after anyone who gets close to their human. And any dog can become reactive.

      • Daikusa@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        I’ll take the dogs that are less prone to “prey drive” thank you very much. You don’t really see Goldens or Bassetts mauling small creatures or humans.

        • Redredme@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          Tbh amstaffs are quite low on the prey drive. Small terriers, dachshunds, schnauzers, pointers, setters and dalmatians on the other hand have a very big prey drive.

          I mean, they are not called hunting dogs, retriever, setter or pointers for nothing. And small terriers have for centuries been bred to kill every rat, mice and what have you in their vincinity.

          But yeah, in the end all dogs are predators. And if you let them go unchecked bad things will happen. Especially when you have a powerful breed.

          Cats do the same BTW. But for some reason we’re OK with dead mice and birds around the house.

          All in all its the same discussion as with guns (and cars): guns don’t kill people, people kill people. And with dogs it’s more or less the same: bad or owners who are Inattentive will Allmost always result in big problems.

          And while I do love amstaffs, they can be such chill and fun hunks of love, I can’t deny that they do real damage, more damage when left unchecked and we should probably regulate ownership like with guns and cars.

          I do not think outright banning a breed is the solution. Because other breeds are just as susceptible to bad ownership. It will not solve it. The problem will just move away from amstaffs back too rottweilers and dobermans. Or another big powerful breed.

          Like with guns we should make it harder for the assholes to acquire one. And like with cars you should prove yourself to be able to take care of one.

      • Wirrvogel@feddit.de
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        10 months ago

        And any dog can become reactive.

        Any cat can give you a scratch or a bite, it’s just worse if the cat is a tiger. That’s why most places do allow a small pet cat and not a tiger.

        Sausage dogs are extremely tough dogs with a lot of prey drive, because they were bred to hunt alone for example a dodger badger underground defending its home. They bite often, are often (pro-)reactive but if someone dies through them it is an old lady stumbling over the leash and breaking her neck, not the dog ripping her guts out.

    • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      The thing I have noticed about pitballs is that they have like this beast mode where they seem to just lose it with rage. Also because of their jaw strength when they do lose it whatever they do is much worse than regular dogs.

  • Nurgle@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    Whoa grab some popcorn folks cause this comment section is a dumpster fire. Do we have a lemmy drama community yet?

      • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        That’s because this isn’t a breed specific problem. Unless that breed is Human. Humans can fuck up any dog on purpose or not and the shitbags who like this breed specifically because it has a reputation will just choose a new breed to fuck up after you ban this one. This has been the pattern of Breed Specific Legislation everywhere it’s been introduced. You can do all of the same aggressive training with a Golden Retriever. And the list of dogs known to have a protective streak is as long as my arm.

          • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            That is hilarious. But there is a real problem here. It’s like we just transferred systemic racism to dogs. We create the problem in the stats and then blame the dogs that were abused to do it.

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              10 months ago

              It’s like we just transferred systemic racism to dogs.

              I actually saved this into a list of ignorant comments I keep. Is easily top ten material. Comparing the banning of pit bulls to the result of the slave trade is a hell of a comment. Congratulations?

              • Pogbom@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                Not to say I agree with him but he didn’t compare those two things at all. He said it’s the same mentality that underlies racism and ‘breedism’ for lack of a better word.

                • themajesticdodo@lemmy.world
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                  10 months ago

                  Comparing people to dogs is fucked up. Asian, latinos, etc aren’t “breeds”. There’s also the implication of certain races being more prone to committing crimes. Honestly, both of you stink like racists.

              • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                I’m sorry, you think systemic racism stopped when we outlawed most slavery?

                Screw the dogs, tell me more about this utopia you live in without modern day systemic racism.

            • gamer@lemm.ee
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              10 months ago

              I have a dream where Pitbulls and Chihuahuas can play in the same dog park together.

              • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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                10 months ago

                Whoosh. The point is we enable these shitty owners who encourage aggressive behavior then we blame the dog when we set the system up that way.

                • foo@programming.dev
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                  10 months ago

                  I mean ban shitty owners from owning another animal, put them in jail for animal abuse, fuck do both. But there is a huge difference in damage between a pitbull attack and say a greyhound.

        • naqahdah@my.lserver.dev
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          10 months ago

          Not sure why people downvote this, it’s objectively correct. We bred these dogs to be what they are, we can absolutely breed something else to take its place. This is really basic evolution and trait selection.

          I think they’re great looking dogs, but I also think they need a similar ban in the US, barring a few highly specialized breeders, who can essentially reverse what was done to them over a period of generations. I don’t want to see them go away entirely, I’d just like them controlled until we can breed out what we’ve bred in.

          • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            It’s not even that’s much to do with the breeding. They are very trainable dogs with a prey drive. They just get shit owners who encourage the aggressive behavior because of the street rep. They’ll do the same thing with Boxers, Dobermans, Rottweilers, and generally any short haired breed that looks muscular.

  • solstice@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    My neighbor has a pit mix and it snarled at me gnashing its teeth once as she walked by. I was just standing there by my car minding my own business barely even acknowledging them. I jump and yell Jesus wtf lady omg. She just made pathetic excuses, he keeps me safe, never does that, it’s fiiiiine etc. Ive told her numerous times she needs to train it at the bare minimum, preferably destroy it. I’ve observed it doing the same to other people as they walk past. I bought pepper spray and look out for them very carefully whenever I go to my car now. I bet it’s just a matter of time before someone gets mauled and I hope it’s not me. Fucking hate those things.

    • vivadanang@lemm.ee
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      10 months ago

      sorry you experienced that, it’s a poor owner, not a bad breed. we have a staffy mix that’s an adorable mutt, great dog.

      • English Mobster@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Do you agree that retrievers are bred to retrieve things?

        Do you agree that herding dogs are bred to herd things?

        Do you agree that pointer dogs are bred to find things?

        Surely you’ve been around these kinds of dogs before. It’s not something that they learn; they are specifically bred to do a job and they will do that job even without training. You’ve seen or heard of how a sheepdog will herd small children, I’m sure. It’s why the breed exists; they are specifically bred to do a certain thing and genetically their instinct is to do the thing that they were bred for over the course of thousands of years. You can remove them from their mom and not give them any training and they will naturally do the thing that they were bred to do. You don’t have to train a golden to bring you back a ball.

        So is it a surprise that a dog bred to kill things will want to kill things?

        That’s not simply because of “a poor owner”, although the fact that people refuse to train their killer dogs to not be killers is part of it. It’s because their dogs are genetically predisposed to kill, just like a pointer dog is genetically predisposed to find things.

        It is absolutely a bad breed. Killer dogs should be banned worldwide. Every single pitbull, rottweiler, etc. should be spayed/neutered and the breed should end. They’re too dangerous and dumb owners have proven that you can’t rely on humans to keep them under control.

        It’s not the dogs’ fault, mind - it’s their instinct. But that doesn’t mean that future generations should have to deal with it.

        • barsoap@lemm.ee
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          10 months ago

          They’re too dangerous and dumb owners have proven that you can’t rely on humans to keep them under control.

          That’s why we have laws in Germany that say that if dogs of certain breeds don’t pass character tests they have to be muzzled, and you might need a license (as in driving license) and a certificate of conduct.

          States tend to put American Staffordshire-Terriers (and therefore Bullies) in the harshest category, Rottweilers get off way easier.

          Those two breeds are nowhere close to comparable when it comes to aggressiveness. Rottweilers aren’t inherently aggressive, on the contrary they’re exceptionally chill and have a high anger threshold. But they’re also protective and if you aren’t chill yourself they will quickly become to think of themselves as the pack leader.

          Rottweilers are about as easy or hard to mess up a German Shepherds, it’s just that messing up passively becomes more dangerous as they’ll become overprotective, see imagined threats because you imagine them, suchlike. If you want to see a breed with inherent anger issues that’d be the Chihuahua.

          • DV8@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            Yeah Rottweilers are herding dogs, they herd children too and just love leaning into you. Herd dogs also protect their pack so they do need training and an owner who knows what they’re doing on top of extensive socialising.

        • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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          10 months ago

          I had a retriever, she liked chasing ducks. Sometimes she would run to duck and then run back to me with this look on her face of “there is a step missing”.

        • vivadanang@lemm.ee
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          10 months ago

          Do you agree humans are made to shitpost? Because your demonstration is revealing.

          No one bred staffies or pits to kill. Cute though. Bet you’re a wonderful human being.

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            Not at all a troll username - it is a new account, but I don’t like making up usernames so I just keyboard mash. I stand by everything I say though.

            Edit. I looked through your comment history. Bit hypocritical to accuse others of trolling with comments like that.

            Copy pasted comments that are totally in good faith:

            If only we could use statistics to cull people, too.

            I think we should genocide every dog because any dog is more dangerous than no dogs.

            • kmkz_ninja@lemmy.world
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              10 months ago

              I just think we should be consistant. If we’re using statistics to cull creatures, racists are going to have a field day.

              • themajesticdodo@lemmy.world
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                If we’re using statistics to cull creatures, racists are going to have a field day.

                Did you just insinuate black people commit more crime?

                Comparing other races to dogs is pretty fucked up to start with.

          • afraid_of_zombies@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            Why not defend your argument instead of attacking another person? It might be more effective and useful, you know unlike your vicious pitbull

        • vivadanang@lemm.ee
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          well with that airtight argument you’ll go far! you should work for the GOP with these kind of ideas, they’ll fit right into that shit show

    • bufordt@sh.itjust.works
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      10 months ago

      After watching my cop neighbor try to drive a dog away with pepper spray, it’s not going to help much. Even direct hits to the eyes didn’t seem to affect the dog much.

      • solstice@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Oof, noted, thanks. I figured it’s a decent last resort but I guess not. Vigilance and avoidance are the best bet as usual. I’m not quite ready to buy a handgun over this.

        • ArianaGrande@lemmy.world
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          When a pit latches on, the only thing you can do is choke it out. Strangle it until it sleeps. Nothing else will make it let go. It doesn’t feel pain, doesn’t notice knife stabs or bat beatings or anything at all. Just hope it has a collar you can pull with all your might.

          • solstice@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            Maybe I’ll buy that handgun after all. Really pisses me off that I’m forced to consider this option because people are too stupid and stubborn to realize they themselves owned walking untrained lethal weapons.

      • Wirrvogel@feddit.de
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        You are not completely wrong, but you are wrong enough to be voted down.

        It’s the owners’ fault for not accepting that they have an extremely dangerous animal on a leash and that they haven’t done the minimum necessary to control it. They make excuses until shit happens and that shit could happen to them and their own family as easily as it could happen to a stranger.

        On top of that, these breeds are far more dangerous than others. Even if another breed bites as often or more, the damage they do is less. This breed will bite and not let go, they ignore pain completely, their jaws make large wounds and with their muscular necks they can rip out large chunks of flesh. I do not care if Sausage Dogs bite more often and are rarely well trained, they do not manage to kill anyone, except an old lady who stumbles over the leash and breaks her neck.

        Even the best-trained American XL bully dog is a weapon that can shoot itself, and once it starts it is unstoppable except by a bullet or being choked into unconsciousness. The breed was bred for this, it is in them like a sausage dog was bred to hunt alone under ground and chase a badger defending its home. They are tough as hell and bite attacks are common, usually ending in a small scar on someone’s lip or a torn trouser. If you keep your finger, your eye, your face or your life with an American XL bully dog you got lucky.

          • Wirrvogel@feddit.de
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            10 months ago

            Insulting people who take their time to explain why people downvote you doesn’t make you any different than the worst of Reddit. Also you seem to not have an argument against what I wrote so that’s settled then. Have a nice day!

        • Brocken40@sh.itjust.works
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          10 months ago

          I agree, we should blame the parents. they should have raised their kids better, and in the case of the mentally unwell helped them get the necessary treatments.

  • saltesc@lemmy.world
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    10 months ago

    Dog breeds all exist for a purpose either still relevant or now redundant.

    Before you get a dog, understand what that breed exists for. Even the best obedience training may not overcome generations of refined and selected natural instincts.

    It’s never the dogs fault. It is always your fault.

  • Jonny@kbin.social
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    10 months ago

    I do wonder how much is the breed and how much is shitty owners being attracted to perceived scary breeds. My guess would be a bit of both.

    • JasSmith@kbin.social
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      You don’t need to train a pointer puppy to point. They do it from birth. You don’t need to train a sheep dog to herd. They do it from the moment they can walk. You don’t need to teach a pit bull to latch and shake. They also do that from birth. Training can mitigate the risk, but they’re still very dangerous dogs.

      • constnt@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        If that logic holds true than pure American pitbull terriers should actually be the safest dogs to own in regards to people. Pitbulls where bred for dog fighting, but even more specifically they were bred to not bite the handlers. As getting a dog to fight is just a matter of time and selection, but getting a dog to fight only dogs and not people is something much more difficult and valuable, at the time.

        But, that was many, many years ago. And the breed has been bred and bred and inbred and bred again. An American pitbull terrier average weight is about 35 to 60 lbs. Average. 35 is no bigger than an average corgi. With 60 at the high end being a small golden or average chow.

        These XL bully breeds aren’t pitbulls. Hell, even pitbulls now days aren’t pitbulls. They are a mix of staffy, mastiff, American bull dogs, English bulldogs, and random other terriers. And then sold as designer breeds like the American bully with no regard for behavior, temperament, or loyalty.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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        Literally every breed with a prey drive does the death shake. And they aren’t the only ones with locking jaws either. This is very much a problem of shitty people who like the reputation.

    • Bleeping Lobster@lemmy.world
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      In the past I’d say it’s a bit of both, though moreso the type of shitheads attracted to ‘scary’ breeds is also as likely to be shit at training/ socialising them. There’s some good evidence though that this particular ‘XL’ breed has higher rates of inbreeding and has already been selected for agression (not to mention their increased size & power).

      Think it’s a fair point some are making though that just banning the latest dangerous breed is missing the wood for the trees. There should be serious penalties from any dog attack, for the owner; treat it the same as possession of a dangerous weapon like a gun or zombie knife.

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      You need to go one step further - why do people feel the need to own such dogs in the first place? Some people would say the dog is for protection (from who? And why are those people a threat? It’s well known that lack of social and communal services lead to young people ending up involved with gangs and violence), others use it as a status symbol (don’t even get me started on consumerism, and commodification of natural shit like animals), and in almost all cases there is a lot of toxic masculinity involved.

      These are all deep rooted systemic issues that go far beyond both dogs and owners (don’t get me wrong - I am not excusing bad dog ownership, and don’t think people should be raising violent and aggressive dogs), and they all need addressing to actually resolve the problem, but it’s much easier for those in charge to focus on the end result, and make it an individual issue, they don’t care about making society better, they just want power and money.

      • Veilus@lemmy.world
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        Not arguing here, all your points are correct, just sharing why I have a big scary dog. He’s half GSD, quarter american pit (not xl) and quarter American staffordshire. I got him for two reasons, 1) I have a first floor patio in a bad neighborhood and he’s got a great guard insinct, and 2) he’s a big baby and makes a great emotional support animal (ptsd anxiety and ASD). I don’t need protection, I just need a buddy to scare off the crackheads who have tried to walk into my appartment just because I wanted some fresh air and left the door open. He loves everyone, but oh boy if I don’t let you in myself you’re in for one hell of time. I’ve raised dogs all my life, knew what I wanted, and what I was getting into. That is unfortunately not the case 90% of the time and it pisses me off when I see it. Honestly I would love to require people get a liscense to own a dog (let alone have children)

        • barsoap@lemm.ee
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          10 months ago

          Honestly I would love to require people get a liscense to own a dog

          That’s the case in Germany, depending on state and breed. With what I heard about US dogs and their utter lack of training (e.g. not being able to lie under a table under a restaurant and chill) you should probably make it universal, though.

          (let alone have children)

          …that’s not going to happen. How about teaching pedagogy and developmental psychology in school, say ages 14 to 16, start of the “seeing kids as kids” age. Speaking of, domestic animal psychology is actually a great topic for biology, doesn’t need to go into depth but some fundamental stuff about cats and dogs so that people are less likely to misinterpret what they see should easily fit the curriculum.

    • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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      Literally all I’m saying is that the vast majority of pit bulls aren’t violent. I fucking said I’m in favor of spaying and neutering the breed out of existence because the few that do become violent are excessively dangerous.

      • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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        Horses are fragile as fuck. Let’s talk about dogs that were bred to kill bears. Oh but wait they didn’t get a street rep and a million shitty owners abusing them. Alaskan Malamutes were bred to help with Polar Bears, they get to about 100 pounds, have a very strong bite, and a big independent streak making them harder to train. Oh yeah and they come with a warning about being around children.

        What’s the difference in the actual breeds? The Malamute is giant fluffball. The Pitbull has many manly muscles.

    • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.ca
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      There’s a story that a family dog got loose after a car crash. They found the dog a few days later … herding sheep. No one ever taught the dog to herd sheep.

    • Wahots@pawb.social
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      The problem is that there’s no way to tell a bad owner from a good one, which is how we end up in situations like this. I’ve almost had my throat torn out as I made my way to the bus stop because a very submissive owner couldn’t control his dommy gshep, which was lunging and straining at the leash in order to kill me.

      I love sheps and have met some extremely good owners, but they are few and far between compared to the jackasses who bring their Rottweilers into bars, where the dog goes absolutely ballistic and starts making kill noises at everyone until the owner has to leave the bar. And that happened last month, lol.

    • joel_feila@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      oh oh I read a study answering that.

      It depends on behavior. They found high correlation between breed and how many time they turned around before laying down. Certain common trip like sit or come. But not aggressive behavior. They highest correlation for that was back ground. Dog from the streets or abusive backgrounds. Followed by a small correlation with genetics, which is not the same as breed.

      Breed did have anything to do with aggression. Also most people can’t tell a pitbull from other dogs, and studies that look at dog attacks only rely on the victim just saying what breed attacked them

    • GreenBottles@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      most people that know how to train dogs have perfectly well behaved dogs, of course they’re always going to be animals at the end of the day but we shouldn’t be surprised when they act out either

  • GiantChickDicks@lemmy.ml
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    It’s really disheartening to see Reddit’s irrational pit bull venom is just as present here. Notice how rarely you see comments from animal industry professionals chiming in with these opinions. It’s not because professionals don’t have their own breed biases, and they don’t typically keep quiet about them, either. It’s that most people with a lot of day-to-day experience with dogs don’t share this opinion. Their experiences don’t match public perception.

    Bite statistics and behavioral euthanasias both in private and public spheres are anything but transparent. They also often rely upon witness statement accuracy, which is not reliable nor scientific. There simply isn’t enough accurate information available to support such a vitriolic, knee-jerk reaction to a dog’s breed in and of itself. There are too many variables to consider to accept that mindset as rational.

    I encourage anyone who cares about these issues and who loves animals and people to consider volunteering. There are a lot of opportunities out there that you might be surprised are available. It’s not just shelters who need volunteers, either, and you can find opportunities in an array of different settings and ways of helping. You might find that experience will give you a broader understanding of how complex these problems are, and how we can work to solve them.

    • IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world
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      10 months ago

      There simply isn’t enough accurate information available to support such a vitriolic, knee-jerk reaction to a dog’s breed in and of itself.

      Of course there is. Not a week goes by in the UK without an attack by this breed. Some survive, many do not.

      • dublet@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        Not a week goes by in the UK without an attack by this breed. Some survive, many do not.

        Can you please link some statistics on this?

        The only source I could find says:

        Six of the 10 fatal dog attacks in the UK last year were linked to XL bullies, and at least three of the seven this year.

        https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/15/why-are-american-xl-bullies-being-banned-and-how-will-it-work

        That’s too many deaths, of course, but hardly one a week.

          • dublet@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            Wednesday: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12522011/Shocking-moment-dog-mauls-boy-football.html

            That one is a Staffordshire bull terrier, not the breed being banned for these attacks.

            That’s 3 in 6 days.

            You didn’t actually respond to my comment about a request for statistics, rather posting some individual stories. So since I posted I found this article from the BBC. It states that:

            In 2022, there were 8,819 admissions to hospital in England with dog bites.

            So that’s actually 24 dog attacks per day, so the problem is even more severe than you suggest, though the claim of only “some survive” then is misleading at best.

            In 2022, there were 482 sentences given to owners of dangerously out of control dogs which resulted in an injury to a person in public

            Out of all those hospital admissions, there’s 24 attacks a day being deemed criminal by our justice system. That data suggests that this problem is by no means limited to the XL bully breed.

            • IchNichtenLichten@lemmy.world
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              That one is a Staffordshire bull terrier, not the breed being banned for these attacks.

              Two attacks in six days rather than three then. Does this somehow make it acceptable?

              They’re a dangerous breed and should be banned. No amount of pedantry or weasel words can change that.

        • squiblet@kbin.social
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          That’s 6 of 10 fatal dog attacks. Though it surely disappoints them, not all attacks by pit bulls are fatal.

          • dublet@lemmy.world
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            10 months ago

            Apparently requesting to have a fact based discussion is offensive. I merely asked for actual data for some rather extraordinary claims.

            • squiblet@kbin.social
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              I don’t think I seemed offended. I pointed out that the fact you refuted wasn’t what the person you replied to was asserting.

              I see the statistics you cite come up as the first result on searches. Did you look at anything else? “Dog attacks in UK annually” has a lot of results for me.

              Here’s a BBC article for example:
              https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-64798162
              which states

              Last year, there were nearly 22,000 cases of out-of-control dogs causing injury. In 2018, there were just over 16,000.

              as far as info on which breeds are involved, I’m sure it’s out there.

              • dublet@lemmy.world
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                I pointed out that the fact you refuted wasn’t what the person you replied to was asserting.

                There were two claims asserted:

                • “Not a week goes by in the UK without an attack by this breed.”
                • Some survive, many do not.”

                (Emphasis mine) The first is not something I can find evidence for as there seems to be no break down easily availably by breed. And as for the second, most survive , 0.1% do not.

                The down votes being given for asking for data seems like I’m offending some. 🤷

                as far as info on which breeds are involved, I’m sure it’s out there.

                Does not seem to be as you have also failed to find it. There is aggregate data for all dogs, which yes, is easily found actually refused some of the assertions that the person made.

                Banning based on breed seems like a knee jerk reaction based on anecdotes.

                • squiblet@kbin.social
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                  True, “many” seems to be an overstatement. Being mauled by a dog isn’t great, either.

                  Does not seem to be as you have also failed to find it.

                  That’s a function of how much time I spent looking. You seem to be more engaged in this topic than I am, so perhaps you could find the data.

          • dublet@lemmy.world
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            482 dog attacks in 2022 resulting in criminal action but a fraction are caused by this particular breed.

            In one recent study, researchers compared behavioural tendencies such as impulsivity and sensitivity to positive and negative stimuli – known to trigger aggressive responses – between eight dog breeds that are legislated against (including pit bull types), and 17 breeds that are not. This suggested that breed alone was a poor predictor of individual behavioural tendencies, including those related to aggression.

            https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/11/banning-some-dog-breeds-in-the-uk-wont-stop-attacks-on-humans

      • DrMario@lemmy.world
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        10 months ago

        I genuinely can’t grasp why anyone would die on the hill of defending pit bulls. There are countless other dog breeds to choose from, why can’t we just ban pit bulls entirely when they’re demonstrably dangerous?

        • slaacaa@lemmy.world
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          In some old reddit threads this was talked about a lot, some interesting ideas came up. Of course many people keep these because they are assholes and enjoy scaring others (e.g. drug dealers, gangsta wannabes), but those are also not the ones arguing about statistics online.

          The most interesting view in my opinion: these owners are having some kind of victim/martyr complex, enjoy picking the hated breed, so they can be a pit mamma, and show the world, etc. It becomes a part of their personality, so they are special and not like others. When they feel attacked, they are very defensive about it - I used to get abusive “suicide reports” many times I posted or commented smg anti-shitbull.

        • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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          One reason is that many people see these arguments against the breed as arguments against their own pet. It’s easy to see why someone would ignore the statistics when they’ve had pit bulls that were all sweeter than any other dog they’ve owned. When you start bombarding people like that with statistics and news stories it doesn’t convince them that good old Velma is actually a ticking time bomb, it convinces them that people on the internet just hate their dog for no reason. After all, while pit bulls do attack people and animals disproportionately often, Velma has lived with a chihuahua and a cat for ten years without ever so much as growling, as do the majority of pits.

          Then there are comments like “garbage dogs for garbage owners,” and arguments against the breed become arguments against the owner. Do you expect someone to just not say anything when someone insults them?

        • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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          Because shitheads are just going to move on to the next breed. That’s already effectively what happened with the XL Bully. The dogs are nowhere near the hardest to train and socialize. They just have the street rep.

          • DrMario@lemmy.world
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            I don’t understand your point. Are you saying if we ban pit bulls people will choose other violent dog breeds, and those people are shitheads? Or are you saying people who want to ban pit bulls are shitheads and banning pits will open the door to banning more violent breeds?

            • Maggoty@lemmy.world
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              The owners who buy these animals specifically because of their street rep will just choose another breed. We need laws about breeding and training.

      • GiantChickDicks@lemmy.ml
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        As I said, dog bite and behavioral euthanasia reports are murky at best, and rely upon nonexpert information. I’m sorry, but a picture graph with no information on how the information was obtained, what verification was involved, etc. is no better than a Facebook share. That’s my point. Information is hard to qualify, quantify, and assess. Trying to oversimplify such a complicated issue is not going to get to the root of the problem.

    • bkmps3@aussie.zone
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      Here ya go. I spent 7 years in the military as a dog handler with two different malinois during that time.

      I then got out and worked for a government agency investigating dog attacks.

      One of the first jobs across my desk was… an American Bully XL. Almost killed another dog and sent a male person to the hospital. The dog was from an upper class family and was around little children daily.

      We had 7 dogs that we had confiscated, pending court hearing regarding attacks.

      7 out of 7 dogs were bully breed dogs.

      In my experience I will not trust a bully breed dog in any circumstance. I’d take a malinois any day over a bully breed dog.

    • squiblet@kbin.social
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      It’s not really about reddit, unless you think the UK government also got their attitude from reddit. Personally while I have not been attacked by a Pitt, and have known people with some that are nice and some that are insane, I have been threatened by Pitts in public and I did not enjoy it.

  • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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    “Genetics matter, but genetics are a nudge in a given direction. They’re not a destiny,” Evan MacLean, the director of the Arizona Canine Cognition Center at the University of Arizona, who was not involved in the research, tells NPR. “We’ve known that for a long time in human studies, and this paper really suggests that the same is true for dogs.”

    https://www.npr.org/2022/04/28/1095390872/dog-breeds-behavior-study

    I’ve noticed once someone starts talking about “breed determines behavior, it’s in their genes!!!”. It doesn’t take much more for them to start saying the same about other animals, like humans.

    • exohuman@programming.dev
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      Interestingly, the same people who pushed the whole dog breed thing were pushing the white supremacy thing last century. Now, they are just idiots pushing an easy issue when all they need to do is look at actual studies.

    • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.ca
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      owner survey

      *For anyone else, breed was tested genetically, behavior was an owner survey. GIGO.

      • givesomefucks@lemmy.world
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        RESULTS We surveyed owners of 18,385 dogs (49% purebred) and sequenced the DNA of 2155 dogs. Most behavioral traits are heritable [heritability (h2) > 25%], but behavior only subtly differentiates breeds. Breed offers little predictive value for individuals, explaining just 9% of variation in behavior. For more heritable, more breed-differentiated traits, like biddability (responsiveness to direction and commands), knowing breed ancestry can make behavioral predictions somewhat more accurate (see the figure). For less heritable, less breed-differentiated traits, like agonistic threshold (how easily a dog is provoked by frightening or uncomfortable stimuli), breed is almost uninformative. We used dogs of mixed breed ancestry to test the genetic effect of breed ancestry on behavior and compared that to survey responses from purebred dog owners. For some traits, like biddability and border collie ancestry, we confirm a genetic effect of breed that aligns with survey responses. For others, like human sociability and Labrador retriever ancestry, we found no significant effect. Through genome-wide association, we found 11 regions that are significantly associated with behavior, including howling frequency and human sociability, and 136 suggestive regions. Regions associated with aesthetic traits are unusually differentiated in breeds, consistent with a history of selection, but those associated with behavior are not.

        What alternative kind of study do you think would be better?

        And if one exists that comes to a different conclusion, can you link it?

    • barsoap@lemm.ee
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      The whole human population has less genetic diversity than a random troupe of chimps, much less domestic dogs as a whole. We’re absurdly uniform.