• Kaput@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    97
    ·
    14 days ago

    Yup,. the hypocrisy is so thick you can taste it, and it’s bitter with a strong hint of propaganda. the world is lead by assholes, on all sides.

    • Hegar@fedia.io
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      33
      ·
      14 days ago

      the world is lead by assholes, on all sides.

      This is an objectively true statement. Of course the world is lead by assholes.

      We all know that power corrupts. Neuroscience has shown that getting power damages the brain’s capacity for empathy.

      You just can’t lead a nation without becoming capable of great evil.

        • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          9
          ·
          edit-2
          13 days ago

          There isn’t a single US president in living memory without a litany of war crimes on their head, and probably going back further but I don’t particularly feel like going back to pre-WWII history because just why bother at this point?

          https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/18/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy/

          https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/11/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy-2/

          Jimmy Carter was good at lip-service, not in reality. And honestly, I don’t even think it’s because he was a particularly nasty person - although I wouldn’t be surprised, he was a politician - it’s just the job forces you to become a war criminal. That’s what happens when you volunteer to supervise the war crimes factory.

          EDIT: Actually, if you want to go back further, read one of the US military’s most decorated generals on what the military’s true purpose is, written in the interwar period: https://archive.org/details/WarIsARacket

          Edit 2: before anyone else wants to pile on this and call it all bullshit because they read one item and it wasn’t genocidal enough for them, at least read as far as East Timor, 1977. The list is chronological, if you get bored after the first item I’m sorry, but I’m not spoon-feeding you the whole article.

          • Hobo@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            6
            ·
            edit-2
            13 days ago

            If those are the worst examples you can come up with the man was basically a saint. What a bullshit hit piece. I am now dumber for having read it.

            • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              7
              ·
              edit-2
              13 days ago

              “Basically a saint” because he only sent aid to juntas and brutal genocidal regimes as opposed to what, exactly? Ordering the bombs dropped himself? I notice you didn’t even answer a single charge, just called it all bullshit. Why? I guess we should all just trust your judgement on the matter and call it closed?

              Also, if you think he was “basically a saint” even though his administration still backed genocide, then I think you’re kind of accepting my premise that “That’s what happens when you volunteer to supervise the war crimes factory.”

          • snooggums@midwest.social
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            ·
            13 days ago

            So he has blood on his hands for not getting involved and for getting involved when both sides are likely to commit atrocities.

            What a ridiculous bar to set.

            • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              5
              ·
              edit-2
              13 days ago

              What are you talking about? Please be specific. All I’m getting are vague “nuh-uh” answers. If you want to actually convince anyone that you have a point, you need to make it.

              The first charge (edit: it was the third charge, I do apologise for expecting anyone to read more than a few paragraphs), was his support for Indonesia’s invasion of East Timor. That’s not a “both sides” kind of issue. It’s an invasion and ensuing genocide. It’s not hard to judge what the right thing to do is there, but the US chose their global strategic goals over not genocide.

              So like… what are you talking about? Please be specific.

              • snooggums@midwest.social
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                7
                ·
                13 days ago

                The first example was Zaire, so if you don’t even know what you are linking I’m not going to go through it line by line.

                https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/18/jimmy-carters-blood-drenched-legacy/

                William Blum writes in Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II that Carter, who had been in office for only two months, was reluctant to involve his administration in a far-reaching intervention whose scope and length could not be easily anticipated.

                However, Carter did provide “non-lethal” aid, while he did not protest as European countries offered military aid, and Morocco sent several thousand of its US-trained military forces to aid Mobutu.

                “President Carter asserted on more than one occasion that the Zaire crisis was an African problem, best solved by Africans, yet he apparently saw no contradiction to this thesis in his own policy, nor did he offer any criticism of France or Belgium, or of China, which sent Mobutu a substantial amount of military equipment,” writes Blum. [1]

                He didn’t criticize, what an absolute bloodthirsty monster!

                • Excrubulent@slrpnk.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  13 days ago

                  I apologise for getting a minor detail wrong about the order of items in the list, I underestimated how critically important the order of items in that list was to you.

                  For instance it seems like you saw a chronological list and when the very first item - which is actually quite damning and from which you omitted the inciting incident of a CIA-backed assassination - wasn’t a full-on war crime, you decided it was all frivolous. I can see why it’s so easy to get someone like you to ignore war crimes when you’re that unwilling to even read about them. I called out East Timor by name and you still ignored it. I can’t hold your hand through the entire article. History is for people who are willing to do some reading.

                  Anyway, if you go just a few items down the list, you read this:

                  The genocidal slaughter reached its peak in 1977, On March 1, 95 members of the Australian Parliament sent a letter to Carter claiming the Indonesian troops were carrying out “atrocities” and asking the American President “to comment publicly on the situation in East Timor.” [3]

                  The response was crickets. Carter ramped up aid with funding and weapons to the murderous Indonesian regime, brazenly flaunting the human rights requirements imposed on American aid.

                  So that’s a war crime, even by the extremely lax rules imposed by the US on themselves and to which they will never hold themselves accountable.

          • snooggums@midwest.social
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            22
            ·
            14 days ago

            Which of course led to him being single term because he wasn’t ruthless enough for a voting public that would rather have a former actor run the country into the ground while paying loveable grandpa to hide the evil.

            But that wasn’t because he couldn’t lead the country, just that the public loves to fall for confident blowhards that tell them what they want to hear.

  • Lianodel@ttrpg.network
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    64
    ·
    13 days ago

    It’s extremely frustrating to hold the apparently controversial opinion that killing civilians is, consistently, a bad thing.

    • MTK@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      10
      ·
      13 days ago

      You’re only worth moral consideration if those in power want you to be.

      Wars, racism, homophobia, etc. These are just the results of those who have the power to ignore those they deem not worthy, doing whatever they want.

      It ranges from current wars, to past wars, to the Holocaust, to 9/11, to eating animals, to Epstein, etc.

      Maybe one day we will realize that someones worth should not be assigned by others.

      We are all equal or we are all dead.

    • PenisWenisGenius@lemmynsfw.com
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      10
      ·
      edit-2
      13 days ago

      The controversy is this. Do we REALLY want to vote for Trump who is going to take away our freedoms, dismantle democracy and probably won’t do anything to stop the genocide in Gaza anyway? Or are we going to vote for the candidate that definitely won’t stop the genocide in Gaza but will at least ensure we maintain a democracy? Its not a good choice either way but I have my own life to look out for and will vote accordingly.

      The greatest service Biden could do to this country (and also the world) is make it so that felons can’t run for president and then drop out of the race.

      • Lianodel@ttrpg.network
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        14
        ·
        13 days ago

        So Hamas killing civilians is a bad thing too?

        Yes, obviously. Why do you ask? Since you asked, I may as well ask, is Israel killing civilians a bad thing?

        Gonna start calling out people showing support for Hamas at protests?

        Sure, if you see them, kick them to the curb. Do you agree that there’s a difference between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas?

          • Lianodel@ttrpg.network
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            12
            ·
            13 days ago

            Alright.

            Firstly, I think a lot of how you’re framing the pro-Palestine protests is either unfair or inaccurate. That’s not to say that you are being unfair or inaccurate, but the sources where you get your information might be. (I will agree that antisemitism is on the rise, and demands a response. I just see more of it from the right, even from Zionists who either want to remove diasporic Jews or support a model of an ethnostate). So, if you don’t draw a distinction between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas, there’s no conversation to be had, because we’re not really dealing with what protestors do, say, or believe. While you compared this to MAGA, it’s the exact same rhetoric used by MAGA to attack BLM, which itself mirrored the rhetoric used against the Civil Rights Movement.

            But it’s also not worth getting into the weeds unless we can find some common ground, so I’d like to ask you the same question again: Is it bad when Israel kills civilians?

              • Lianodel@ttrpg.network
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                6
                ·
                13 days ago

                I am perfectly happy with how I presented myself, actually. And I think you also revealed a lot about yourself, too. If you’re happy with what that is, then that’s all there is to it.

                I do think it’s worth pointing out that the thing that really seemed to set you off was asking you the same question you asked me. I answered it easily, and you took great offense while hurling insults and misrepresenting positions I’ve already put down in words. Why should I get into the facts when you don’t really care about the facts, or what I have to say?

                If the question of whether Israel killing civilians is bad (not even unjustified, not even criminal, just bad) bothers you… maybe that’s a good thing. I certainly have no problem supporting Palestine while condemning Hamas, or supporting Jews while condemning Israel. It’s possible you just didn’t want to voice an unpopular position, but maybe it bothers you that you can’t say “yes, it’s bad.” If that’s the case, keep pulling on that thread. I think you could use some self-reflection, especially given this last post. I’m sorry, but this was a lot of the pot calling the kettle black.

                I sincerely hope you have a better tomorrow. I know you’re angry and frustrated, but I hope you can find peace and understanding.

    • mildlyusedbrain@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      61
      ·
      14 days ago

      So this piece doesn’t source any evidence that it was used and ignores the literal fact that later investigations by Amnesty didn’t find credible evidence of use as a military base and the massive Israeli misinformation campaign on that front: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_military_use_of_al-Shifa_hospital#:~:text=During the Israel–Hamas war,Hamas and hospital administrators denied.

      But yeah let’s justify Israel bombing away access to medical care to people forced into a small, war torn area because fuck Palestinians I guess.

    • Schmoo@slrpnk.net
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      50
      ·
      14 days ago

      This is highly contested and no credible evidence has been produced for these claims. Israeli propagandists have been hard at work conjuring up lies wholesale and it’s shameful to repeat them without verification.

    • givesomefucks@lemmy.worldM
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      10
      ·
      14 days ago

      Al Shifa was home to Hamas torture chambers for a decade at least.

      Your link gave one example a decade ago.

        • givesomefucks@lemmy.worldM
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          11
          ·
          edit-2
          14 days ago

          You linked something from a decade ago of something being claimed once, and claimed the link showed it’s been happening for a decade continuously.

          I thought you were just confused so I didn’t ban you

          If you knew what you were doing, then that was my mistake.

        • r_se_random@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          5
          ·
          14 days ago

          What makes you think they’re still doing it? IDF/Netanyahu saying it without any credible evidence?

          Also, what kind of logic justifies attacking a hospital which definitely has victims of Israel’s own relentless attack, on the off chance that the hospital might have terrorists?

  • masquenox@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    56
    ·
    14 days ago

    Hell, a while ago France24 wasn’t even using the terms “Israel” or “IDF” in any of it’s reporting on the sacking of Gaza - they were literally pretending the bullets, bombs and missiles was being fired and dropped by some unknown party.

  • capital@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    39
    ·
    14 days ago

    I don’t think Ukraine is known for hiding military assets in things like hospitals.

    You can keep trying to make them the same but they aren’t.

    • ShinkanTrain@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      45
      ·
      14 days ago

      Yeah they’re different. Israel killed many times more civilians in a fraction of the time.

    • snooggums@midwest.social
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      17
      ·
      14 days ago

      The difference being the IDF lying about why they destroyed a hospital and Russia lying about whether they were the ones who destroyed a hospital?

        • snooggums@midwest.social
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          32
          ·
          14 days ago

          First, that article is paywalled and the subheading just says that US intelligence confirms a suspicion. US intelligence also said Iraq had WMDs so they aren’t that reliable.

          The IDF entering the hospital is a different thing from the complete distruction of the hospital and all of the other hospitals they have destroyed in Gaza. Or all of the other infrastructure they have destroyed, always claiming it was used by Hamas.

          The IDF has also lied multiple times about not killing the journalists they have killed. Or the aid convoys they attacked directly despite the IDF knowing they would be trainsporting aid.

          They are lying liars and claiming anything is ‘used by Hamas’ should be immediately suspect.

            • snooggums@midwest.social
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              14
              ·
              edit-2
              14 days ago

              The article is from January and is speculation. I can’t find an article that says they did find a command bunker and network of tunnels, just a couple about finding a few weapons and communication items plus one unexplored tunnel.

              Do you know of a more recent article that confirms there was a command bunker and network of tunnels? It has been 7 months and they spent the time destroying the rest of the hospital so surely there is something confirming that it was a Hamas command bunker and not just stuff left by soldiers who went to a hospital for medical care.

                • snooggums@midwest.social
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  10
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  14 days ago

                  First, connecting a tunnel to a building doesn’t make the building itself the same thing as whatever the tunnel connects to. By that logic, having a road to a hospital from a military baes makes the hospitsl a valid target.

                  I didn’t watch the full video, but it sure looked like a long service tunnel, which tons of buildings have. Nothing that justifying destroying an entire hospital complex after they cleared it. Is the IDF unable to close a single tunnel going into a hospital?

                  Not to mention the part in bold from the article (found out I can get to the text at least through reader mode).

                  The Israeli military, however, has struggled to prove that Hamas maintained a command-and-control center under the facility. Critics of the Israeli military say the evidence does not support its early claims, noting that it had distributed material before the raid showing five underground complexes and also had said the tunnel network could be reached from wards inside a hospital building. Israel has publicly revealed the existence of only one tunnel entrance on the grounds of the hospital, at the shack outside its main buildings.

                  Yup, justifying destroying the entire hospital complex because one tunnel connects to a shack outside the main buildings. Really proving your point there!

  • Draedron@lemmy.dbzer0.com
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    31
    ·
    13 days ago

    I am tired of these comparisions. The Ukraine war has a clear good and a clear bad side. The same cannot be said about the Israel/Palastine war. Both parties are equally shitty. There is just one side much more powerful so more capable to commit cruelties. The only clear good people here are the civillians suffering on both sides.

      • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        13 days ago

        i would argue both articles should probably just be talking about how hospitals were bombed, rather than writing an entire diatribe on the emotional states of everyone involved.

        But that’s just me, i like my reporting neutral.

      • lud@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        ·
        13 days ago

        Sure but one article is a breaking news type of article and one is about a bad thing that has already happened and now they are merely entering the hospital.

        I dont know the specific of either event but is it possible that more people died in the Ukrainian hospital?

        • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          11
          ·
          13 days ago

          is it possible that more people died in the Ukrainian hospital?

          No, it’s not. Al-Jazeera reports 2 deaths in the Ukrainian hospital, The Guardian reports 4. IDF reports 200 Palestinian casualties in Al-Shifa, Palestinian authorities report 400+.

    • Ibaudia@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      14
      ·
      13 days ago

      A hospital full of civilians being bombed is bad regardless of the context. There’s no point in media outlets spinning shit like this. They’re just acting as propagandists for Israel by throwing softballs like this.

      • cows_are_underrated@feddit.org
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        19
        ·
        13 days ago

        Okay, so Russia Invaded Ukraine. Russia is the Aggressor.

        The Hamas attacked Israel, so Israel exterminates Palestine and claims it wants to exterminate the Hamas. The Hamas have committed Warcrimes and hides the self behind Civilians and the IDF does a whole lot of warcrimes too. Both sides are shirt, just the IDF has done a bit more shit than the Hamas. Theres no good side in this conflict. Both sides want to exterminate each other and sacrifice the Palestinian civilians for this.

        I don’t know where you see a more black and white scheme in the middle east conflict than in the Ukraine war, but I’m willing to read your explanation.

        • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          11
          ·
          13 days ago

          You appear to forget 75 years of israel invading Palestine. And putting Palestinians in a concentration camp.

          • cows_are_underrated@feddit.org
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            15
            ·
            13 days ago

            And 75 Years of the Hamas Attacking Israel. Israel has killed much more Palestinians that the other way around, but its still more complicated than The Ukraine war.

            • Zengen@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              6
              ·
              13 days ago

              There was no nation of israel before Israel committed mass murder and near genocide on the Palestinian people. Then they shoved them into the concentration camp of Gaza. Made them.wear special green badges just like the Nazis made them wear the star of David arm bands. They make Palestinian people walk on the opposite side of the street in many places. They do not have the same rights to life liberty or property that Jews have. The Israelis were the first aggressors. And have continued almost 100 years of brutalization against the civilian people. The Israelis are no better than the Nazis that they fled from and in my opinion are not deserving of a nation of their own.

            • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              13 days ago

              Ukraine has also been attacking russian troops since the beginning of the invasion, what’s your point?

              • Soleos@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                7
                ·
                13 days ago

                That highlights the point precisely. Ukraine is targeting Russian troops, i.e. legitimate military targets. Hamas targets civilians and uses civilians as human shields. The IDF doesnt care how many civilians they have to go through to get to Hamas.

                • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  13 days ago

                  Ukraine is targeting Russian troops

                  They also started sending unmanned air vehicles with explosives to Russian infrastructure such as oil. Which I’m not against. Because they’re defending themselves against an invasion. As Palestine is doing. The situation of Palestinians is much, MUCH more dire than that of Ukrainians, so it’s only to be expected (not to be confused with justified) that their response is also more violent.

                  uses civilians as human shields

                  Sorry, but that’s strictly false, and propagating that shit is heinous. I’ll paste here what someone else said in the comments:

                  So this piece doesn’t source any evidence that it was used and ignores the literal fact that later investigations by Amnesty didn’t find credible evidence of use as a military base and the massive Israeli misinformation campaign on that front: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alleged_military_use_of_al-Shifa_hospital#:~:text=During the Israel–Hamas war,Hamas and hospital administrators denied.

                  But yeah let’s justify Israel bombing away access to medical care to people forced into a small, war torn area because fuck Palestinians I guess.

                • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  4
                  ·
                  13 days ago

                  Hamas attacked first

                  Palestinians was there before Israel was even conceived, and the first Nakba, in 1948, which marks the hard line of the invasion, in which 750k+ Palestinians were forcibly relocated, was started by Israel. History didn’t start on October 7th

                • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  13 days ago

                  Ukraine attacked first after Russia invaded them.

                  The only difference is one of those people is brown and you believe colonizing brown people is okay.

              • jj4211@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                13 days ago

                If Ukraine started a terror campaign against non-combatants, it would be a reasonable comparison. Problem is that while you can cite Hamas operations against military/police targets, we shouldn’t ignore the operations on non-combatants. Even as the IDF has done wrong, Hamas has done wrong in a similar way, albeit with fewer resources and thus to a lesser extent at this point.

                It’s what I hate about the whole “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”, it likes to present even terroristic acts as morally relative according to context, but it’s just not the case.

          • skozzii@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            6
            ·
            13 days ago

            Dude they have been fighting for the whole time and for every bad thing Isreal has done Hamas has done one back.

            Ever heard of the saying “and eye for an eye and the whole world is blind”. Well both sides are blind now.

            The only correct take is that both sides suck and the palastenian people are the ones who suffer. To take a side in this conflict is uninformed, as both sides have way too much blood on their hands. This is very far from black and white and simple.

            • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              6
              ·
              13 days ago

              This is just blatantly false. You don’t know anything about the history.

              What was the 2018 march to return? Only one side is seeking peace. And israel only seeks destruction.

              This Genocide is what israel has been doing for over 75 years.

            • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              5
              ·
              13 days ago

              Dude they have been fighting for the whole time and for every bad thing Isreal has done Hamas has done one back.

              Damn, that’s disgusting. I’ll rephrase it in terms that hopefully will make you understand why it’s disgusting: “Ukraine has been fighting back the invasion the whole time, and for every bad thing Russia has done, Ukraine has done one back”

              Ever heard of the saying “and eye for an eye and the whole world is blind”. Well both sides are blind now.

              What are Palestinians supposed to do? Peacefully accept being relocated and murdered by the hundreds of thousands? Should Ukrainians just have given up? Is Ukraine wrong for targeting infrastructure inside Russia with explosive unmanned air vehicles now?

              The only correct take is that both sides suck and the palastenian people are the ones who suffer. To take a side in this conflict is uninformed, as both sides have way too much blood on their hands. This is very far from black and white and simple.

              One side has blood on their hands because it’s the invader, the other has blood on their hands because it’s the invaded. This is the most stupid take I’ve seen.

          • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            4
            ·
            13 days ago

            75 years of history that quite literally nullifies it being black and white, because history, as well understood by historians, only makes things more clearly visible, obviously.

      • jmsy@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        18
        ·
        13 days ago

        Nothing about middle east conflicts is close to black and white. I’d recommend you read up on it.

        • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          10
          ·
          edit-2
          13 days ago

          Imagine saying a literal Nazi style Genocide is not black and white.

          Are you going to say Hitler actually had a point next?

          • jmsy@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            11
            ·
            13 days ago

            Godwin’s Law strikes again. The sure sign that someone has run out of logic for an argument

          • Ibuthyr@discuss.tchncs.de
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            4
            ·
            13 days ago

            Just stop. This conflict has been going on for ages and is so complex, people have to actually study this shit to even remotely understand it.

            Russia just fucked Ukraine.

            All of this aside, the comparison of the two headlines is just dumb. The left side was from 2023, right after it happened. This was the official statement back then. What should they have written instead? They even used quotation marks. Fucking hell.

            • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              13 days ago

              You understand neither conflict and speak of it as if you do.

              There was never a Hamas base found in al Shiva that was a lie. The left headline is Zionist propaganda from the Guardian.

              • Ibuthyr@discuss.tchncs.de
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                edit-2
                13 days ago

                No, it was the official statement back then before investigations were made. This happened a couple of days after the Hamas kidnapped and killed a shit ton of Israelis. There still was some miniscule amount of credibility in this official statement, which turned out to be bullshit after a while.

                And yes, I absolutely understand the invasion by Russia. That is not a complicated thing. I do not fully understand the Israel - Palestine conflict and neither do you. There’s also way more parties involved than Israel and Palestine.

                What you’re doing is posting disgusting populist propaganda, downplaying the horrors of one conflict to shift attention to another. Just stop. Both conflicts are fucking disgusting.

                • Linkerbaan@lemmy.worldOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  13 days ago

                  Israel never had any credibilty before oct7. Every sane journalist knew how much israel lies about everything. Such as how israel killed an American journalist 1 year earlier and lied about it for half a year straight. Putting their lies in the headline is pure undeniable propaganda there is no plausible deniability.

                  Never have I downplayed what happens in Ukraine. I am only pointing out how the media heavily manipulates people in favor of Israel. Showing the extreme double standard.

                  And if you think Russia and Ukraine are the only players you understand as much of it as I stated before.

        • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          6
          ·
          13 days ago

          Nothing about middle east conflicts

          Spoken like a true racist, grouping up “middle east conflicts” as if it was a single entity.

          Pretty easy actually, Palestinians were there living their lives and having a sense of nationality as Palestinians since the latter years of the Ottoman Empire. Zionists decided they didn’t care about that, decided they deserved their ancestral homeland, and western countries helped them militarily to relocate hundreds of thousands of people and murder tens of thousands on top. It’s almost quite literally that easy.

          • jmsy@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            5
            ·
            13 days ago

            I’m Iranian, and there’s no hope of going home any time soon. It’s perfectly acceptable to lump the middle east in that statement. Show me one conflict in that region that’s not black and white.

            • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              ·
              13 days ago

              Show me one conflict in that region that’s not black and white.

              I assume you mean the opposite. I’ll bring you one about your own country.

              In the Mosaddegh era, a democratically elected, secular, progressive, leftist leader was well on the way of successful policy for Iranians through the nationalization of the oil industry which, up until then, as you probably know better than I do, was extracted by the British Petroleum with the knowledge and approval of the Shah (thanks to some juicy “contributions” to his personal fortune paid by the British), leaving almost no profit from the Iranian oil to the Iranian people. The British blockaded Iran militarily, and through MI6, with help of CIA, staged false-flag attacks on private businesses through paid actors who pretended to be communists (the party was in Mosaddegh’s coalition). They literally bribed local mafias and gave them loudspeakers to pretend they were popular protests to prime people. And the poverty induced by the military economical blockade, summed up with all this shit and much more, made it so that the Mosaddegh government was deposed and the status-quo was more or less restored, and British Petroleum was happy.

              Tell me how that’s not black and white.

          • Freefall@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            4
            ·
            13 days ago

            That isn’t how racism works…is racist turning into the left version of “woke”? His comment wasn’t even out of ignorance, that is what that area is referred to, and nothing about conflicts in that area (including the topic at hand) is black and white…

            • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              13 days ago

              Grouping up a whole set of countries, ethnicities, histories and conflicts into a “middle east” category and call treating it all as a homogenous “non-black and white” issue is racist, sorry.

              nothing about conflicts in that area (including the topic at hand) is black and white

              Thank you for ignoring the inconvenient part of my previous comment. Please tell me how the first Nakba isn’t black and white.

              • Freefall@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                13 days ago

                It is the name of that region and conflicts within it are still conflicts in the Middle East. Still not racist, sorry. You get this worked up over people mentioning Europe or “The West”?

                • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  13 days ago

                  If people grouped up every single geopolitical conflict within Europe under a single category of equally non-black and whiteness, they’d be ignorant to do so. When western people do that with the middle east, it’s just an excuse to keep their minds free of it and dismiss it all and the responsibility of their governments.

                  Funnily enough, you know where in middle east there weren’t these “non-black and white” issues until three decades ago? Kazakhstan. Uzbekistan. Turkmenistan. Tajikistan. Azerbaijan. Kyrgyzstan. I wonder if there’s something black and white about the whole thing now…

          • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            13 days ago

            Spoken like a true racist, grouping up “middle east conflicts” as if it was a single entity.

            most people would do the same for general geographic regions though.

            If it were a war between germany and france for example, it would be referred to as a “western” war. Russia vs China would be eastern for example.

            Most of these wars are culturally related, especially in the middle east where they seem to have a particular style of warfare, it only seems fair to refer to it as “middle eastern” arguably, the only one that isn’t really doing this style of warfare here is israel. Though they clearly have reservations on morals.

            • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              13 days ago

              Wow, funny, I didn’t hear the bombing of Yugoslavia and its disintegration, the invasion of Ukraine, and similar conflicts in Europe ever called altogether “European issues”, but separated very well individually.

              • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                13 days ago

                well technically, semantically it would be “eastern european” even though it’s not really a thing. And it is generally considered to be a “european” problem, if you look into the matters from a more global perspective, it’s entirely fair to state that.

                My main point though was that it’s not “racist” to exclaim that, it’s just incredibly broad and referential. Which in current times is probably reasonable.

                • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  13 days ago

                  My point is that extremely broad claims about extremely different and unrelated issues, and painting them all “oh so difficult”, is a tool used by western media to make people think the problems are too complicated to be solved and there’s just nothing to do about violence in “the middle east”, as US and its allies weren’t responsible for more than half of it.

      • KillingTimeItself@lemmy.dbzer0.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        8
        ·
        13 days ago

        far more black and white? What in the ever living fuck are you talking about?

        Ukraine was literally legally guaranteed that russia wouldn’t invade them, after taking their nuclear weapons. Russia LITERALLY broke this agreement. How much more black and white can you get than quite literally going against what you’ve said?

      • skozzii@lemmy.ca
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        5
        ·
        13 days ago

        Care to explain it if it’s so simple? You have no idea what your talking about…

    • MintyFresh@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      13 days ago

      I know you’re getting down voted to hell but I agree. People are losing sight of just how shitty Hamas is. This is exactly what they wanted, they care even less about their own peoples lives, happy to use them as human shields. A hundred thousand martyrs. Fucking embarrassing to be human sometimes.

      • AgentDalePoopster@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        13 days ago

        No one is losing sight of that, they’re correctly making the point that there is no justification for bombing a hospital full of patients and that the justification the IDF gave has been found to be false.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      13 days ago

      The Ukraine war has a clear good and a clear bad side. The same cannot be said about the Israel/Palastine war.

      It’s funny, because I’ve seen so many white nationalists assert the exact opposite.

    • istanbullu@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      4
      ·
      13 days ago

      It’s the opposite. Israel/Palestine war has a clear evil side (Israel) and a clear victim (Palestine). Ukraine war is a complicated mess.

      • S_204@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        8
        ·
        13 days ago

        So the victims are the ones who openly call for the death of an entire group of people? Their founding Charter literally calls for the elimination of Jews… and after they slaughtered the women and children in October they said they’ll do it again. They’re the victim to you? Interesting.

    • andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      28
      ·
      edit-2
      14 days ago

      I could’ve said it’s more complex than that, but both conflicts couldn’t have happened if invaders just haven’t invade.

        • XIIIesq@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          12
          ·
          edit-2
          14 days ago

          “The Arabs”, it was a terrorist group that an entire demographic is being punished for (collective punishment is a war crime), 35000 people have been killed, mostly civilians.

          Do you think that Israel would be using the same tactics if hamas was hiding among it’s own population?

          Yes, it’s genocide.

        • VådFisk@feddit.dk
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          10
          ·
          14 days ago

          It depends when you stop, while holding down the rewind button. If you stop at Arab attacks every time you are correct but wrong in doing so

        • Jiggle_Physics@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          9
          ·
          14 days ago

          You know, all the conflicts, except the one where an exiting, invasive power, gave massive amounts of their land, to a foreign group of people, who began locking the locals out of as much of the government, and economic, structure as possible. Then started a long string of agreeing to what ethnic group gets what, then forcing them out as the foreigners wanted more land.

          The British could have not just given away the land, that other people had occupied for thousands of years, to Europeans they wanted to move somewhere else, because they were in the process of dumping the colony anyways. The European Jews could have realized they were simply replacing an invading power. Decided to work on developing business with the local population, instead of leaning into zionist nationalism, claiming because ancestors, thousands of years ago, once lived there, they were owed it. They decided to take, instead of cooperate. This is the root of this conflict.

        • andrew_bidlaw@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          3
          ·
          14 days ago

          This one is a little bit different. I’ve seen claims of Hamas been supported by Israeli admin (against other factions?) and that reports about the preparation of the october attack were ignored. Are these worth the ink they are printed with?

  • ToucheGoodSir@lemy.lol
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    24
    ·
    edit-2
    13 days ago

    Considering that Netanyahu was having corruption charges levied against him before October 7th… well, from the Israelis I’ve talked to, the intelligence was there to prevent the attack, and the brass let it happen. War time leaders tend to hold on to power a lot easier. In addition to the gas deposits off the Gazan coast, and the whole beach front property development thing that Israeli corporations are advertising. It’s terrible what has been happening in Gaza and the West Bank (obviously) BUUUT, I mean, they’re surrounded by much larger countries that are hostile to them. WHY they are hostile, well, that is where cracking open a history book comes in.

    • volodya_ilich@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      16
      ·
      13 days ago

      Netanyahu is just the latest in a long list of demons, the invasion of Palestine didn’t start on October 7th.

      • ToucheGoodSir@lemy.lol
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        8
        ·
        edit-2
        13 days ago

        I mean, it is the classic cycle of human hate right. I talked to a (gorgeous, I will add, sue me, I like pretty girls) Israeli girl for a few months after Oct 7th. Hearing her perspective of things was educating. If I was on a date and had someone at the table next to me get stabbed in the neck by a random passerby, I would be a bit jaded as well. Having regular alarms to hide from missile attacks etc. Obviously, genocide bad. The Palestinians have it far worse, and are being used as proxies by Iran because of the whole mini-cold war that has been going on in the middle east for a while. However, life is rarely black and white. Unless it’s like serial killer/rapist/torturer/illuminati shit. Deprogramming generational hatred on an individual basis takes a great degree of patience and understanding of nuance. Calling all Israelis evil monsters is NOT how you fix the problem, my 2 cents.

        I will leave this song here as an example of the Israeli perspective, I thought it was pretty spicy:

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUMl58i4m0w

        • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          8
          ·
          13 days ago

          In conversations like this where there is a never ending tit-for-tat of violent revenge I wonder why humans in gerneral just can’t stop being shitheads. Palestinians are treated like third-class people, their land slowly stolen, and face constant prejudice. So of course that fuels the violence towards Israel. Then Israel treats Palestinians like shit, and the cycle never stops. Why we have to dig our heels and force the other side to cede first like a couple 5 year olds arguing.

            • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              7
              ·
              13 days ago

              That’s what you want? No mercy until the people of Palestine are groveling at your feet? Wonder if they’ll ever be low enough for you to offer them that mercy.

            • sigmaklimgrindset@sopuli.xyz
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              13 days ago

              If it’s just about Hamas, then why are they also attacking and taking land in the West Bank? Hamas has no control on influence there, by Israeli design by the way.

              If it’s just about Hamas why are IDF soldiers going on social media and celebrating the suffering of civilians, pregnant women and children? Are babies Hamas from the moment of conception?

              At least learn some critical thinking skills, snowflake.

                • sigmaklimgrindset@sopuli.xyz
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  5
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  13 days ago

                  Here, let me say this in all caps because you’re clearly a bit thick and have never opened a history book or a map: BRO HAMAS HAS NEVER OPERATED IN THE WEST BANK.

                  I bet you don’t even know the difference between the West Bank and Gaza actually. It’s pointless to talk to someone that doesn’t even understand the basics of the geographic location they’re talking about, never mind the geopolitical nuances.