The animating concept behind the Trump campaign will be chaos. This is what history shows us fascists do when given the chance to participate in democratic political campaigns: They create chaos. They do it because chaos works to their advantage. They revel in it, because they can see how profoundly chaos unnerves democratic-republicans—everyone, that is, whether liberal or conservative, who believes in the basic idea of a representative government that is built around neutral rules. Fascism exists to pulverize neutral rules.
So they campaign with explicit intention to instill a sense of chaos. And then comes the topper: They have the audacity to insist that the only solution to the chaos—that they themselves have either grossly exaggerated or in some cases created!—is to vote for them: “You see, there is nothing but chaos afoot, and only we can restore order!”
Whatever. I’m voting D no matter what, for every election, because republicans are disgusting traitor filth.
I don’t consider myself a Democrat, but in this two-horse race, I vote Democrat because, as my father was fond of saying and said as far back as at least the Reagan era, “the worst Democrat is better than the best Republican.” Sad but true. I’d rather have a senate of Bob Menendezes and lose Susan Collins in the mix. Menendez is a corrupt bastard, but at least he votes as if he gives a shit about other people. Collins tries to sound reasonable and fair and then votes in lockstep with the rest of the Republicans most of the time anyway.
Lol yeah I remember when I used to consider positions, evaluate the candidates, check historical records etc. GOP has made this very easy the last few years because “fuck women, gays, immigrants and the disabled. Science is fake, Jan 6 is fake, covid is fake, trump is a saint and the rich need more help”.
Wow what a winning platform. ☑️ D
GOP has made this very easy
I’m a Houstonian. I’ll vote straight ticket, but I can already tell you how the election will shake out.
Texas will go bright red. Houston will go bright blue. My vote at the state and national level won’t matter, because its winner-take-all. And many of my neighbors will be subject to harassment, disenfranchisement, and voter caging because they’ve got African American / Pacific surnames, which flag them as easy targets for reducing D turnout. That’s before you even get into how reliable a Jane Nelson / Ken Paxton administered election is expected to be, given how frequently we’ve had rules for mail-in ballots, voter id, and county-wide voting challenged by the current state administration.
The GOP has made the decision to vote against them easy. They have made the process to vote against them increasingly difficult.
Science is fake, Jan 6 is fake, covid is fake, trump is a saint and the rich need more help.
The same folks who say this shit are the ones expected to tally the results of the election faithfully.
As the saying goes, “Its not the votes that count but who counts the votes”. Our dogged reliance on the machinery of elections in a state with a decades long history of shady election practices is naive af.
Too many people can’t bear conscience for voting for someone actively abetting a genocide. A lot are boting 3rd party this year, so the vote’s split
Cool. Vote third party. We’ll get Trump (or one of the other authoritarian dominionist clowns in the car), who will end up pushing for a nuclear attack on Gaza while dismantling every institution we have here, meager as they are, but people still need them. Then in 2028, don’t vote at all because you will probably lose your right to do so. At least you voted with your heart<3 though, so have a nice cup of tea and give yourself a hug.
We do not have a system in place where your idealistic protest can do anything other than make things worse. Fix the goddamn system, put people in power on a local level who have a chance, and work up from there. Fuck outta here with any Jill Stein horseshit.
Cool. Vote third party. We’ll get Trump
If not voting Biden is a vote for Trump, wouldn’t not voting Trump be a vote for Biden by the same logic? The logic only works if you assume all third party voters would be voting Democrat which isn’t the case.
You know what I’m talking about. Of course not all third party voters would vote for the Democratic candidate, but how many leftists would otherwise vote for the Republican? I reeeally doubt these people are stumping for the American Freedom or Constitution candidates.
Of course not all third party voters would vote for the Democratic candidate, but how many leftists would otherwise vote for the Republican
Trump arguably won in 2016 because of the 13% of Obama-Trump voters, Bernie-Trump supporters are also a thing, and not all Trump voters are politically engaged people as aren’t many Democrats, and only about 66% of eligible Americans voted, with lowest rates in the 50s-low 60s being red states. A third party wouldn’t necessarily only “steal” Democrat voters because this isn’t a closed system with one option. The logic I presented there is perfectly valid because not everyone is a leftist, for “not voting Biden is a vote for Trump” to work you have to ignore a bunch of voters and potential voters. It’s just something people say online for people to say “yes” to that has no relevance or impact on material politics at all.
I’m referring specifically to actual politically engaged people who refuse to vote for Biden because he isn’t progressive enough. Also, as I have not addressed it, I do get why they do refuse, as he would not be my first choice either, and I absolutely agree that Biden (and most democrats, tbh) needs to reach out to these voters because the base is more progressive than is reflected in their representation. I was aware of Bernie-Trump voters but, beyond their disdain for the establishment party politicians, I do not understand their motives; however, I will read up on it because it so baffles me.
I do hope that you’re right about this; being a mediocre white guy, I am not really in any danger of the fallout of a Trump presidency beyond what it would mean for all of us, but I don’t want to see more of what happened to marginalized people during his administration, as I fully expect things to be even worse if he gets in, just out of spite and due to redhats becoming even more deeply emboldened to act out. Not that they won’t act out otherwise, but I expect them to see themselves as self-appointed enforcers.
If not voting Biden is a vote for Trump, wouldn’t not voting Trump be a vote for Biden by the same logic?
No, because you assume both sides are equally likely to switch their vote to third-parties. Right-wing voters are less susceptible to fits of conscience, and are much more reliable getting to the voting booths. They are more likely retirees, or zealous Fox News foot soldiers. The GOP knows this and that’s why mushy “both sides suck” third-party pushes disfavor democrats.
The lowest rates of voter turnout are actually in red states on average, which are 50s-low 60s, and Trump arguably won because of the 13% of Obama-Trump swing voters. Not all Trump voters are even politically engaged just like most Americans, some see the media and Democrats going crazy about him yet haven’t felt any impact of this on their daily lives so they don’t connect with the “vote for us because we’re not Trump” messaging at all. The most ignored group of Trump voters are people who just vote for him for some dumb superficial reason and don’t really care about politics, next to Obama-Trump swing voters.
I hear your point, but I do think “Obama-Trump swing voters” is a defined group that is fun to talk about without any true diagnostic purpose. It captures too many different types of voters. They’re not all just those who change affiliation with the slightest breeze - many are probably people who went down alt-right rabbit holes between 2012 and 2016, or the cumulative effect of Fox News, or voters who more often vote against the incumbent party seeking “change,” and so on.
But also, even if the lowest rates of turnout is in red states, that doesn’t mean that in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, etc GOP voters will be more reliably good foot soldiers. Turnout naturally will trend lower where the votes in fact matter the least, I’m sure that’s true for both parties. The relevant metric is comparative voter turnout in swing states.
Cool. Vote third party. We’ll get Trump
Isn’t Trump’s victory predicated on an electoral college victory?
How does voting third party impact whether or not your state’s electors vote for Donald Trump?
We do not have a system in place where your idealistic protest can do anything other than make things worse.
Sure we do. Look at the very origins of the Republican Party. Abraham Lincoln emerged as the frontrunner against a Whig Party that was in full collapse. It was only possible thanks to Freemont’s break from the Whigs in 1856, galvenizing abolitionists into a full formal partisan block.
Or consider the Farmer-Laborer party of North Dakota, which controlled the state for several decades before merging with the Democrats under Roosevelt.
Or consider the rise of Libertarian, Socialist, and Fascist candidates within the major parties. Primary insurgency candidates will routinely build a base of non-partisan support before joining the major parties as outsiders. Sanders ran as an Indie from Vermont for 14 years, before stepping up to run for President in 2016. Donald Trump himself was a Reform Party candidate in 2000 and was a staunch Democratic mega-donor/bundler in New York well, before defecting the GOP in 2012. Senators like Mike Lee and Rand Paul built their brands outside the party system before winning primaries in their respective branches.
The split in the Dem Party in '68 gave rise to Nixon and Reagan’s Southern Strategy, which secured the Presidency for the GOP (with the exception of the narrow Carter win in '76) for the next 24 years. Great news for Dixiecrats who cared more about maintaining racial supremacy than New Deal economics and who found a way to profit handsomely from Reagan-Era giveaways to large land owners and shareholders.
Third Party campaigns have a long and proud history in the US of paving the way for more successful general election runs in subsequent election cycles. They don’t always pay off year-of, but they can have a seismic effect on politics going on decades afterwards.
Isn’t Trump’s victory predicated on an electoral college victory?
It doesn’t have to be. If there are enough splits to deny any candidate an outright majority in the EC, the task of choosing a president falls to the congress in the ‘contingent election’ procedure, whereby state congressional delegations each have 1 vote. If 26 states have republican delegations (which seems plausible, given how many states are controlled by the gop) it’s very likely Trump wins if it goes to a contingent election.
If anything, this supports the argument against voting 3rd party protest votes in any FPTP election
If there are enough splits to deny any candidate an outright majority in the EC, the task of choosing a president falls to the congress
Well, double damn then. I’m in a heavily gerrymandered house seat so now my vote extra doesn’t matter.
it’s very likely Trump wins if it goes to a contingent election.
That’s heavily predicated on how midwestern states manage their house seats in the next election. Pennsylvania’s forced redrawing of maps in 2018 flipped five or six house seats. Wisconsin and Michigan redistricting fights could cost as many more, each. Dems are within range of the House (barring another landslide swing like in 2010 or 2018) if too many of these break the Dems’ way. And now that Dems appear more focused on winning state SCOTUS elections, that’s not inconceivable.
If anything, this supports the argument against voting 3rd party protest votes
I’m guessing you’re not a Lieberman 2008 guy. And who can blame you?
But folks with sufficiently high name recognition can definitely win third party. Just ask Lisa Murkowski. Or Jesse Ventura, for that matter.
Vote third party. We’ll get Trump
i don’t think so. i voted for howie in 2020 and we got biden.
With donnie in power, we may very well have genocide in our borders.
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I think the logic here is that Biden, while endorsing genocide outside of the U.S., isn’t causing it inside of the borders. With Trump you’d have it both outside and inside.
Ergo, they see the choice as less genocide or more genocide. Both terrible but why choose more over less?
Blessed be the day we can vote for no genocide.
You can do it today. It’s called third party.
In a FPTP system, that’s called voting for Trump with extra steps. The fact that it fucking sucks doesn’t change the fact that it’s true.
Lol this message of ‘vote 3rd party’ is such copium for trump being the GOP frontrunner.
Everyone knows trump is a turd, the only hope for the orange shitbag to win is a split vote. You sloppy trolls aren’t very good at trying to fool people.
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Part of the problem with the Biden Administration (and Obama before him) is that it seems content to allow guys like Abbott and DeSantis to Do As Thou Wilt in their respective states. Biden could win reelection in '24 and we’d still see a genocide of border people, entirely because his administration is unwilling to pick a fight with a powerful governor in a state flush with heavily armed state border guards.
Uhh have you seen your borders the last… America’s entire history
Sorry, I didn’t word that very well. I mean within our borders. The extremists on the right wing get tingly in their swimming suit areas over the idea of killing their fellow citizens, and over stupid shit like not being sufficiently deferential to their Orange Jesus (OJ), being POC, gay, an uppity woman or liberal, and so on.
I’m assuming they are a fringe, but this kind of terrorism on a nation-state level does not require a majority. Not even all of the conservatives taken as a group are a majority. I suspect the teabaggers types are 30% or less of the population, and the ones that will gleefully cheer on/actively participate in genocide are probably less, but it’s still at a very scary point, since even 10% of them and having a government that backs them is a recipe for disaster.
Here is why you should never vote third party in a FPTP voting system. If you are not happy with your candidate choices, then we need to increase voter turnout in local elections, mid terms, and most importantly, primary elections. Primary elections are where you actually can change the spirit of the political parties, but hardly anyone votes in primaries despite them being arguably the most important.
Here is why you should never vote third party in a FPTP voting system.
This only holds when the respective parties are roughly evenly tied with one another and the two major parties have the marginally more-popular candidates.
In a state where one party or the other is an overwhelming favorite to win, this math doesn’t matter. In a state where both parties have put up a shit candidate (say, you’re in Arizona or West Virginia and being asked to support Kristen Sinema or Joe Manchin yet again), a third party vote is the only way to clear the deck of deplorable alternatives. If you’re in Nebraska and the popular frontrunner is the indie union activist Dan Osbourn you would be foolish to vote party line as that’s effectively a vote for Deb Fischer.
No, it holds regardless. Your argument is the same as saying there’s no point in voting if you don’t win.
Your real problem is as I said, Primary Elections, where we have EXCEPTIONALLY terrible voter turnout. The primaries are where you choose your party representatives. If you are complaining about the General election, the fight was already lost.
there’s no point in voting if you don’t win
This is demonstrably true, though. Hell, there’s no point to voting if you do win, when the election is sufficiently lopsided. The general election process is the tail end of a far larger and more financially involved whittling of the candidate pool.
Even then, the focus is on building a movement rather than a single candidate’s campaign. Elections are not one-and-done. Candidates can rise and fall in iterative races based on the coalitions they built (or squandered) in prior campaigns.
Primary Elections, where we have EXCEPTIONALLY terrible voter turnout
Turnout hardly matters when only a few candidates have the resources to compete. This Presidential primary is case-in-point. When Trump is favored to win 60% of the primary vote and Biden is virtually uncontested, volume of participation is irrelevant. Whether turnout is 10% or 100%, the same two guys are going to move on to the general.
I’ll spot you that primaries have an outsized influence and that entryists in the democratic process are savvy to focus their attentions on these races. But Beto O’Rourke winning the primary for Texas Senate and then Texas Governor did nothing to overcome the enormous support-deficit he suffered in the general.
So what do you propose? Do what instead of voting? Seems like the lowest hanging fruit to me. The left tends to win with turnout. The left tends to be more progressive and more conducive to evidence based problem solving. Fixing the parties at the primary level seems like the lowest effort solution for the largest pay off.
Encouraging voter apathy is counterproductive, unless you are going to propose we do something else that’s more effective for the same energy expenditure.
I truly believe that if every person who complained about politics spent as much time voting as they did complaining, we’d have a more representative government.
We complain about a government that is corrupt, run by the wealthy as if we’re not the ones who put them there. Inaction is an action. Why should they represent our interests if we don’t even vote? All not voting tells a politician is that you aren’t their constituent.
Do what instead of voting?
Depends heavily on what kind of problems you’re facing at home. In my home town of Houston, the state government has hijacked the school board of HISD and imposed a bunch of shitty rules and regs, designed to waste money and torture kids. So I joined my local PTA. We go to meetings and harass/shame the bureaucrats involved. We reach out to the teachers and administrators who are under the gun to enforce these policies and offer them our support. There was a picket of the school district’s office in October for instance.
Direct action - refusing to comply with harmful public policy, harassing public officials who are advocating and endorsing this policy, and getting other parents and teachers on board with alternative policy that you can implement outside the scope of the administration - is an effective means of undermining an unelected bureaucracy appointed by a corrupt state government.
I truly believe that if every person who complained about politics spent as much time voting as they did complaining, we’d have a more representative government.
There’s more to politics than complaining. You need workable alternative and you need a popular consensus. Ten different people all pulling in ten different directions won’t affect any kind of change. But ten activists with a shared understanding and vision, pulling in the same direction can.
We complain about a government that is corrupt, run by the wealthy as if we’re not the ones who put them there.
We’re not. Far more often, it is the wealthy and well-organized interest and advocacy groups that put these people in power.
Greg Abbott and Ken Paxton aren’t rogue agents who just kinda bubbled up from a political morass. They are the direct beneficiaries of large social mobilizations - O&G lobbying groups paid for with overpriced fossil fuels, large religious organizations like Houston’s Second Baptist Church and Lakewood Church which galvenize masses of people along socially conservative political issues, doctors and lawyers and real estate associations and car dealership clubs who have formed cartels designed to guarantee higher salaries. One of the most politically active people in my community is Jim “Mattress Mack” McIngvale, a local celebrity businessman with a penchant for hookers and blow and QAnon conspiracy bullshit. This guy single-handedly bankrolls half a dozen talk-radio shock jocks with his advertising money and influences hundreds of thousands of my neighbors. Another is Dr. Peter Hoetz, a close personal friend of Dinesh D’Souza, who helped produce “2000 Mules” a documentary about how Joe Biden stole the 2020 election from Donald Trump.
Knowing who these people are and how they influence the body politick is instrumental in understanding where and how public opinion is crafted and distributed. If you’re just showing up to the polls every two years and praying that Truth Will Prevail, you’re walking to the slaughter. Only by recognizing who these assholes are, how they’re seeding conspiracy theory and bigotry into the public domain, and where they fucking live so you can put a few rocks through their windows, can you discourage them from continuing.
I think the problem is that third parties are thinking too big. You can’t just rival the Democrats or Republicans on a national level overnight.
Let’s say hypothetically, one state becomes disillusioned with the mainstream parties and a third secessionist party starts making headway in mayoral and state elections, soon winning over the people.
If it’s a big state like Texas, that’s well over a hundred electoral college votes lost for the Republicans.
The problem is the spoiler effect. It’s a well documented shortcoming of FPTP.
We need to all ask ourselves what is the biggest impact I can make politically with the energy I am willing to spend. For me, energy spent voting should never be LESS than energy spent complaining about politics.
It’s funny. It’s already election year and you can’t even name a 3rd Party candidate with any sort of shot. But yes, some perfect candidate will declare in late September, right?
The Green Party was an absurd joke even decades before Stein the Russian useful idiot came along…
I hate it, but there is just no viable third party choice for progressives in this country.
The choice is to find Dems like AOC and get them elected.
I used to be an Independent voter. I’d consider reasonable Democrats and Republicans alike. No more. Dems down the ballot for me.
Same but I primary whenever I can for candidates that even entertain being progressive. Anyone who want to stop the plutocracy, treat our planet like we need it, or will act with empathy.
I’m tired of every election being the most important election. I want politics to be boring again, less evil too if possible.
If politics were ever boring or less evil, it’s because you weren’t paying attention or engaged. Every upcoming election will always be the most important. Simply because all the others have happened, and the remainder are too far off and nebulous.
Ask all the people suppressed, attacked, and assassinated in the 50s and 60s fighting for civil rights. All the ones since then too. It didn’t magically become perfect. Or all the people brutalized by robber barons before as they fought for unions, weekends, reasonable hours, and basic safety.
Being disengaged from politics is a luxury and a privilege that most people can’t afford. Which explains why we’re in such a deficit. With so much of the American population chomping at the bit for fascism again. And much of the rest of the world close behind. Putin in Russia, Orban in Hungary, Milieu in Argentina, etc etc etc. We’ve been asleep at the wheel, enabling the worst people among us.
You landed in the wrong timeline.
Too late for that.
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Republicans are pushing for fascism, and Democrats like not having to do anything but be second worst to fascists.
It might be a few elections before that happens. There’s political turmoil and fascists have a chance so they’re gonna keep going for it until republicans understand they cannot possibly win anything with fascism
I… I just want to get back to the days when the internet kept our attention with porn and stupid browser games… is that so much to ask!? Is it so terrible to expect congress to be no more exciting and no less humane than any other day at any other workplace??
Yeah the problem is that wide reaching policy changes is hard to sell on a country wide scale
Are the Democrats EVER prepared though?
“I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat.” - Will Rogers, 1879-1935
“Democrats never agree on anything, that’s why they’re Democrats. If they agreed with each other, they’d be Republicans.” - Will Rogers, 1879-1935
1879-1935
TIL you guys have been stuck with the same two political parties since the 1850s. No wonder they’ve gone a bit corrupt.
To be fair, the parties themselves have changed significantly since then.
To be fair, no two-party system is a healthy democracy, and the way our elections are designed it’ll stay that way.
Which means, get worse
Yep, as it has been since the 1850s
Yep, as it has been since the 1850s
since the 1850s
Yeahhh, you may find some people disagree with you on that one. I hear some stuff happened in 1861-1865 or something, for example.
Our election system is generally bad. Elections aren’t controlled by the federal government, even for federal elections, they are run by counties (or whatever the locality calls a county - in Louisiana they are parishes) and each county runs their elections differently unless the state steps in and regulates it. Some states have mail in voting, some make you stand in line on election day. Some counties have FPTP voting, others might have STAR or RCV.
The only way I see things changing at all are two fold: publicly funded elections with no private money at all AND abandoning FPTP voting for a broader method with an added benefit of potentially eliminating primaries. I know parties would complain, but things would be much more democratic.
This is entirely correct. The only way to heal the nation is to take steps forward, not relying on an archaic system that ‘works’ and building out something that actually works.
We won’t get rid of FPTP or gerrymandering so long as we elect our representatives from geographically defines districts. We should empanel state congressional delegations in statewide elections, rather than by districts.
In a state with 20 congressional seats, any party that wins at least 5% of the vote should have a seat. A party that wins 10% of the vote should have 2 seats.
America’s founders biggest fear were political factions forming. But when they were concerned the voters were all landowning men, how could people with shared economic interests ever form factions?
That’s what happens with a first past the post voting system. A ranked choice would open things up quite a bit, but that would require the people elected by the first past the post voting system to change it or mass revolution.
Someone call the French and let them know we actually do need them again.
Americans are perfectly capable of manufacturing guillotines domestically.
Yeah, but the French guillotines have that certain je ne said quoi.
It must be a proportional system. No other system produces viable 3rd parties.
No other system produces viable 3rd parties.
American’s lack of knowledge about Canada never ceases to amaze me.
Canada has effectively the same system as the UK, both being based on fptp, are you suggesting that fptp is fine in a preliminary system?
I’ve campaigned for an NDP candidate who was against fptp as many of us are, even our current PM ran on replacing fptp which never happened of course… however we have more than 2 “viable” parties despite not having proportional representation. You can apply definitions to “viable” at your will but they have won provinces quite recently and have many seats in federal and provincial government.
I looked over and the trend is away from two parties as well.
God damn it. It’s been true that long?
It’s almost like individual people have different opinions and want different things.
…yeah…but also, we all need to want Republicans to lose spectacularly.
It increasingly feels like that’s the single unifying trait holding the democratic party together. That’s the sole reason you see people telling everyone to get out and vote.
It’s not “We need to get young people to vote because they care about progressive policies, and we can elect a candidate who will align with their views”, it’s “We need to get young people to vote because we can’t let Trump win another term.”
Because it is the only trait. The Democrats know it. As long as they act slightly more progressive they can enjoy massive corporate and AIPAC bribes just like the Republicans do.
Nothing will change if people vote Democrat this time. In 2028 some other Republican (or Trump again) will run and the Dems will go “Vote for us or we’re going to get Genocided for real this time unlike the other 150 last years whenever a Republican won”
The Democrats are actually way more internally organized now. About 30 years ago during the 90s both parties reached almost unanimous internal ideological consensus’ and essentially all vote as a single blocks. The state we’re in now with this polarization is part of this, and an example of the increased factionalization of US politics.
It’s crazy to think how there were staunch segregationist Democrats in to the 70s even as the party as a whole had been (successfully) catering to younger urban demographics that came alongside industrialization. We can’t really imagine something like that occurring now. Even Biden was opposed to bussing and a lot of his “across the aisle” examples even today involve working with segregationist Democrats, not “across the aisle” as we interpret it now.
I actually like that about the Democrat Party. Shows how ideologically diverse it is because tolerance is a bedrock of the party ever since the two parties switched from being conservative and liberal. The GOP flipped within four years from being neocons to isolationists, and anyone who disagrees with the current identity is a RINO
"Ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right when it affects them personally.’ - Phil Ochs, 1966
Democrats and Republicans swapped ideologies and beliefs around 1936
This has been the Republican Party’s M.O. for decades.
“Government is corrupt and ineffective, elect us and we’ll prove it to you!”
There is no saving America, there’s only buying time. Democrats can’t do what’s needed to prevent fascism because actually doing something about the Republican party would risk creating actual democracy. Prepare to fight fascism now because at best you’re buying yourself another 4 years. Vote, don’t vote, vote for a third party out of protest, whatever you do organize with other people and prepare for the worst.
In the best case, I’m wrong and you’ve made new friends. But if you don’t organize now it will be too late to organize in the worst case.
Democrats can’t do what’s needed to prevent fascism because actually doing something about the Republican party would risk creating actual democracy.
Hard fucking facts. When you look at places where liberals have carte blanche to do whatever they damned well please - your Californias and Washingtons and NYs and Minnesotas - they still can’t bring themselves to do what needs doing. No public health care. Rampant homelessness thanks to commodified housing. Food deserts. Rich-people-only universities. No new mass transit. Police budgets skyrocketing. Everyone kowtowing to tech executives for no discernible benefit.
Meanwhile, the fascists in Texas and Florida and the Dakotas and Carolinas are creating the future of the American political system while Schumer, Jeffries, and Biden just kinda sleep through it.
Vote, don’t vote, vote for a third party out of protest, whatever you do organize with other people and prepare for the worst.
Voting as a panacea for organizing has really fucked the country as a whole. While movement conservatives raid school boards and throw pipe bombs at abortion clinics and do Brooks Brothers Riots and Jan 6ths any time an election is in doubt, liberals have been totally pacified. They show up ever couple of years, pull a lever, do a thoughts and prayers, and go home.
They spend far more time gambling on Robinhood or working overtime to earn their bosses a bigger paycheck than they do throwing events for their neighborhood or organizing their offices to bargain for a bigger share of company profits.
The American future looks increasingly grim.
When voting isnt enough learn how to grow crops like a farmer not a gardener and then practice shooting. If we’re lucky those will stay hobbies.
learn how to grow crops like a farmer
Historically, the smart move it own the land and have other people do the reaping and sowing. Even then, agricultural land has skyrocketed in cost as its been commodified. Idk if I’d consider “sharecropper” a savvy career change under and social conditions.
practice shooting
At whom? Or is the plan to just shoot everything that moves and hope for the best?
If you have enough money to hire people to do farmwork this comment is not for you. It’s about you.
If you don’t have enough money to hire people to do farmwork, you sure as hell don’t have enough money to purchase productive farmland.
No on said to buy a farm. Use what’s available to you and ammend the soil, there are plenty of organic addatives that are free, low cost, or byproducts. Also make you own compost to continually add neutrients, aka grow food like a farmer not a gardener.
The point is to know how to do it cyclically, with little if any input other than what you create. Its an investment in divesting from society, and a lesson in sufficience that you may need once the fact that China and Bill Gates own the most farmland in America becomes a more pressing issue.
The guns are there because for any situation where food become that valuable, productive land anywhere becomes a target. Weather its pests, deers, boars, or humans.
Use what’s available to you and ammend the soil
A quarter acre of land in my neighborhood runs for $300k. There is nothing I can do to that soil that’s going to justify a $300k upfront investment in urban agriculture. Nevermind what this prepper nonsense is going to accomplish in the event the End of The World isn’t happening within the next five years.
a lesson in sufficience that you may need once the fact that China and Bill Gates own the most farmland in America becomes a more pressing issue.
The cool thing about farmland is that its only really useful if its being worked. And the realization that we’re ultimately going to have to come to terms with is that the folks who “own” the land are very far removed from the folks who give the land value.
At the same time, subsistence farming isn’t a particularly productive lifestyle in a post-industrial world. So telling everyone to run out to Iowa and become soybean farmers is not good financial advice.
True, that. Building mutually supportive communities is really beneficial if shit goes bad. It’s something most of us can do on a local level and it’s something most humans are pretty good at.
I really wish Biden would step down. I’d love a better option from the Dems. That said, no way in hell am I voting for Trump.
I really wish Biden would step down. I’d love a better option from the Dems.
glances at Kamala Harris
sighs
Biden is safe, and honestly the best frontrunner we have.
I disagree. An 80 year old is not the best option we have.
Certainly the best option who’s running though
That’s 11 months for heart disease to do the world a favor and get itself some good PR for once.
The illusion of choice: vote for a senile old man or a senile old man that would consider turning minorities into Big Macs because he is hungry
The while calling Biden senile thing is pretty worn out. It’s not true and it only helps Trump. Yeah, he’s old, but Biden is sharper now than Trump was 30 years ago.
the he’s better than Trump thing is worn out. Don’t worry I’ll vote for grandpa Joe, I mean, what choice do I have?
What about the 40 beheaded babies that Biden saw photographic evidence of?
Biden is the dullest tool in the shed.
You think Biden is a duller tool than the guy who suggested injecting beach to fight COVID and wanted to nuke a hurricane?
Don’t forget, both those old men want Genocide in Palestine. I’m hoping more people vote 3rd party this year
…which will only help the fascists and put donnie into power.
Someone in another thread asked me what was the difference between coalition governments and two party systems. This is it. You should never be forced to vote against a candidate, yet that has been the US for the last several elections and will continue to be the US for the foreseeable future. Unless Trump wins, then the last vestiges of democracy in the US will fall pretty hard as Trump and associates continue to stuff cronies into government and finishing what they started during his first presidency while Europe and Asia likely fall to military conflicts.
I’m hoping more people vote 3rd party this year
Why would that accomplish something in 2024 when it didn’t accomplish anything with Nader in 2000 or Perot in 1992? The Democrats and Republicans will really definitely for sure learn their lesson this time for realsies?
Nobody learned any lessons. If they did Trump wouldn’t have been elected let alone be allowed to run again after provoking an insurrection to stay in power. I want to see viable 3rd party challenges that can make for actual change in how this current system work. People need options that don’t completely suck
I want to see viable 3rd party challenges that can make for actual change in how this current system work.
Who would this viable third party challenger be and why would they be able to make actual change when neither Perot nor Nader could?
Don’t strawman the idea of 3rd party candidates. Just fall in line is not really a healthy mindset if change is desirable. Humans could never fly until they actually tried
Very sadly we just aren’t in a climate for third party candidates to do anything. I would suggest getting involved with ranked choice voting advocacy groups if you really believe in it.
This is the perfect climate for it. Teach the Democrat voters that these Zionist Nazi foreign agents have no place in politics. Either they all join in third party voting or they’ll keep losing to Republicans.
Trump winning again isn’t going to change anything. The “he’s a dictator and never going to step down” fear mongering from last time turned out to be complete BS.
Nothing will ever change if you guys keep acting like scared chickens refusing to vote for anything other than Democrats.
Democrats are the controlled opposition, nothing more.
How do you expect to see a viable third party challenge in the US with our current system? All third parties do is get the major party most opposed to their position elected because it don’t matter jack shit if 51 people vote against Orange Hitler if 3 of them vote ‘Principled Third Party’, leaving only 48 people to vote for the major party candidate opposed to Orange Hitler. Orange Hitler wins 49-48-3, and all 51 people who didn’t want Orange Hitler get stuck with him because 3 didn’t want Grandpa Joe. Leave off with the Rebellion for now, and spend your effort on replacing First Past the Post. Until you do that, all you’ll do is ensure we get Orange Hitler.
I don’t think either of them cares much about the middle east or Israel much. If anything they both look at Benjamin the same way Xi looks at the DPRK guy.
Just old upstarts with bones to pick over
Hey man, just look at China, the much darker truth is that in many parts of the world, senile old men run things, your freedom, dreams and purpose is largely meaningless to them unless they’re very close to you or you’ve shown that you also care about their freedom and the well-being of their future offspring.
For a lot of older people, a certain cynicism comes with wisdom, and you’re just like everyone else, a cog in the wheels of a big system. For America and China, where in many parts it’s essentially still a mafia state, this is even more pronounced for people that come into positions of power at an older age as they’re even more experienced at the real life equivalent to GTA politics.
The only real upside is that it’s not as bad as the middle east still but hey that’s a low bar for most that consider war and civil society to be two separate states of existence
If the democrats were prepared Biden wouldn’t be on the ballot
He’s the incumbent. The last incumbents to not be reelected were Trump and HW Bush. Tell me again why Biden is unelectable.
How about we get a president that isn’t over 70 and doesn’t require uppers to function, like biden, or literal adult diapers, like trump.
Both options are garbage and both men need to retire.
Because Biden is a lot closer to HW Bush than he is to Obama. One of the reasons he got the nod in the first place was his promise not to run for re-election. And where we are now is why.
Biden specifically said he would not promise to serve one term.
Oh bullshit he said that once while telling everyone around him that he was a one term president. And he continually referred to himself as a transition president or a stopgap bridge to the next generation.
The message was received by voters.
https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/11/biden-single-term-082129
Another top Biden adviser put it this way: “He’s going into this thinking, ‘I want to find a running mate I can turn things over to after four years but if that’s not possible or doesn’t happen then I’ll run for reelection.’ But he’s not going to publicly make a one term pledge.”
…
A top Biden adviser said Biden ruled out a one-term pledge when the issue was raised before he even entered the race. “He said it was a nonstarter,” the adviser said, adding that Biden believed it was a “gimmick.”
…
In April [2019], when asked whether he would serve just one term, Biden responded, “No.” More recently, Biden has been ambiguous. In October, The Associated Press reported that when “asked whether he would pledge to only serve one term if elected, Biden said he wouldn’t make such a promise but noted he wasn’t necessarily committed to seeking a second term if elected in 2020.”
Even in your own quotes.
The last incumbents to not be reelected were Trump and HW Bush.
Funny that you didn’t mention Carter.
Last 40 years not good enough? Even with Carter the odds are better for the incumbent.
Oh it’s not that, it’s just there is so few presidents that didn’t win their second election, and you listed all of them except one particular democrat, is all.
People don’t think he does enough. And “his son”. Basically it’s to just be edgy. Dude has taken a shit show and make it resemble an office again.
Gods know I’m not ready for another American election.
You and me, both.
Democrats still don’t know who they will be running against - since the polling needed to determine that are not “likely Iowa caucus goers” but “likely Trump jurors”. We don’t want to be like the Republicans in 2008 who were completely prepared to take on and tear down a Hilary Clinton nominee, only to find themselves fighting Obama.
If the Republican nominee is anyone but Trump, we’ll see Trump run as an independent and split the vote.
🤞🏻
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I would hate to see how that voter turnout would affect all the downballot elections.
Him running from jail while competing against a candidate that isn’t popular with the MAGA nuts, would be the ideal outcome.
Call me a pessimist, not not likely. Trump’s narcissism is only dwarfed by his laziness. If he doesn’t win the nomination, he may still run to try to stay out of jail. But he will absolutely not run if he’s going to be pardoned and protected by a fascist leader of his choosing, and can relax into a kingmaker role with all of the prestige and none of the responsibilities.
The world will be looking at you. Don’t fuck this up USA
Too late. We’ve already normalized fascism.
Fascism makes people turn on the tv, so every national news network actively did that for the profit of it.
Too late.
Please, for the love of God; if it’s a state where Biden is guaranteed, then vote third party or whatever alternative dumbass you want. If it’s a swing state, it’s your god damned duty to vote for Biden. I don’t like the AID he’s providing Israel but he’s not dropping the fucking bombs.
We don’t need to spit in the face of our constitution to prove a point. We don’t need to tank the work he’s done getting the country back on track so you can feel morally superior. We don’t need another bad year of COVID just because your friends are saying “Biden bad”. Your friends are retarded and so are you.
Normally I don’t give a shit what you liberal idiots do but this is seriously going to affect us in the real world. It’s not your reddit and lemmy echo chambers out here so please tighten the fuck up.
Or tell us of a viable, alternative candidate with over a 90% chance of winning. Oh you don’t have one? Then please shut the fuck up and vote Biden.
It’s BIDENS BOMBS being dropped from BIDENS AIRPLANES. The fact that the pilot is israeli would only matter if Biden STOPPED SENDING THEM MORE BOMBS AND AIRPLANES.
Genocide Joe has got to go!
Since you seem to love concern trolling, please explain why you’d prefer a literal xenophobic dictator who gets off to torturing minorities
Agree basically but why use slur?
A lot of wackos around the world have been winning elections, so we shall see.
Meet the new year, same as the old year.
