“I’ve never experienced it so you must just be imagining it” pretty much describes the conflict of every issue out there, from race to mental illness. Hell, even things like homelessness.
There’s also the “I have suffered it and therefore everyone else must suffer it as well”
Don’t forget “I’ve suffered it and it wasn’t that bad so don’t pretend it is”
Which actually means “I’ve pretended to suffer it and you are probably too”.
“I experienced racism. I was called a potato once and seriously, it wasn’t as bad as all the n* pretend it is. Get over it.”
Sometimes it means “I did a thing in the past and don’t recognise the ways in which it has changed over time to become worse today than it was in my day”.
the two faces of an extremely punchable coin
exactly. empathy is the ability to realize other people have different experiences than you. to think about what it’s actaully like to be homeless.
but people think it means ‘just agree with me and make me feel good, and if i feel bad for people i am a good person’
Most people I know lack empathy for things like this. Even people I’ve grown up with my whole life.
So that raises the question, is it something you’re inherently born with? As I don’t think I chose to be this way, but here we are. I find it interesting to think about.
Empathy is definitely a learned trait that develops slowly. Children generally start off treating life as if it has a preset plot and other people as sort of NPCs or characters in their life. Realising other people and even animals experience things at all should happen at some point. And realising their experiences are different again later. But it’s a complicated process and may even fail.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/smart-parenting-smarter-kids/201905/how-children-develop-empathy looked pretty good from a quick search. Otherwise that’s just my memory from basic psychology classes.
Thanks for the response. I guess some people still think everybody else is an NPC into later life lol.
I’ll have a read of that link over the weekend so thanks for sharing.
depends on your genetics and the environment of the womb, brains are pretty complicated and behaviour is affected a lot by that kind of stuff. there exist people who mostly or entirely lack empathy after being born and there are people who are ultraempathetic, and there’s a ton in between.
there’s also a difference between “cognitive empathy” (the ability to recognize others’ emotions) and “affective empathy” (how you emotionally respond to your perception of others’ emotions). something also associated with empathy is the ability to distinguish between yourself and others, i.e. how well you can put yourself in their shoes rather than think of their experience from your own perspective.
a lot of people suck at the last one, which is bad because even if you have positive affective empathy and can share others’ emotions, you still may not be able to really grasp how they feel and you’ll probably think that they’re overreacting or underreacting or reacting wrong because you can’t imagine yourself acting the same way if you experienced the same thing. many people are subconsciously sexist or racist because they see someone dealing with casual sexism and racism and think it’s not that bad, just brush it off, but they can’t relate at all because they don’t have the same set of life experiences and same psychology as other people. to them it’s “i wouldn’t react that way if someone did that to me, so you shouldn’t either”.
it’s usual for humans to have enough empathy to survive as a pack/society at least, but it’s also usual for humans to not have a mood disorder and it’s usual for humans to have 5 toes on each foot. in some “societies” like american capitalism, less affective empathy is usually advantageous with high cognitive empathy, and more affective empathy is usually a disadvantage, which is kind of the opposite trend in humans.
a lot of the times when it seems someone lacks empathy, they either don’t express their empathy in typical ways, or conditions (like culture) require them to silence it to be successful. but they could also just lack affective empathy, or have dissonant empathy (affective empathy entailing an opposite emotional response than what you would expect), both of which are typical anti-social and narcissistic traits.
Thank you for all this, it’s been very informative.
It does raise a few more questions, but it’s cool if you don’t have time to answer.
What kind of empathy would it be when one cries at films due to the story. Whether it be something bad happening to somebody or even tears of joy for their success.
How does one know if there empathy for someone else is from your own perspective vs trying to see it from someone else’s?
Like if I’ve never been homeless but i wholeheartedly can understand and see how one might end up there though choices, or even no fault of their own.
getting beyond ape-brain requires a lot of learning and practice. like any skill.
being perennially excluded from parents group, kids activities, volunteering, coaching and other social connective activities because you’re a male parent and might accidentally sexually assault someone
losing multiple male friends to suicide, and seeing society handwave it away as being less important than any other form of death, despite its incidence being 10 times that of homicide
being objectified as inherently dangerous, simply for having a penis, and worse still understanding why
starting each day trying to be good, and do good, and that still never, ever being enough
Why participate?
That stuff sucks, and to add to your first point, I love hanging out with kids. They view the world in an interesting way that usually leads to funny out of context quotes about their parents.
But would I go up to even an acquaintances kid to talk? No. Since I’m a 199cm (🇲🇲6’6🇱🇷) hunk of man meat, I’d probably scare the kid and parent half to death.
The same goes for anyone, not just women. I don’t have the right to make anyone feel unsafe and if I am, then it’s my duty to walk away.
It’s not my fault, or yours. It’s just the way of things, and the only way we can fix it, is to respect everyone’s feelings. Unless they’re minimising your loss of someone, in which case fuck them.
why should anyone be thought of as scary by other simply because of how they were born, people shouldnt look at someone and assume they are gonna start killing people just because they are big or a man, that is wrong it is wrong to think that way and the people who do should change.
I mean the idea that if people perceive u as dangerous for no good reason they should act as if u were dangerous and thats just something u have to deal with is ridiculous, in any other context this line of reasoning would be considered obviously wrong if a white person acted as tho all black people were dangerous they would be rightly called racists and be expected to change their behavior so why should it be any different with men, why is it suddenly ok good even to uphold the patriarchy against men, this is ridiculous if people feel afraid of u for no reason u should challenge them on it and question it not just accept it as if it were normal.
The fact that there could be someone out there thinking, “I have 17 homes, so clearly they are imagining not having a home”, does not shock me
edit: grammar and my brains is a mix of spaghetti and mashed potatoes
It’s more like, “I own 17 homes and it wasn’t that hard to get that many. They must not be trying hard enough.”
This is funny when it comes to minority groups in a larger one.
I remember telling someone passionate about his org that I’ve seen some homophobia/queerphobia and shit in the org, and he was like “Homophobia here??? We don’t tolerate that, it can’t be happening. I haven’t seen it”
Well, it’s not like they are calling you a f****t or some shit, you aint queer
It’s super ironic that you are the top comment in THIS thread.
Hi again, you assumed that I thought deep fakes worked off magicly making nudes and just didn’t understand the technology of aggregation as opposed to listening to the ways that women are being blackmailed and harassed by it. And that even if deepfake is exponentially faster and more accessible, it’s nothing new or different than drawing a picture of someone naked, even in the age of social media
Instead of actually listening you were arrogant, dismissive and hostile. You are the man in this comic. You are the person who is not harmed by deep fakes, so it’s not a real problem.
It’s been a while so idk if you remember, but as soon as I realized what you meant I immediately owned up to my mistake. This was from one of the last comments I made to you back then:
I’m not trying to be disingenuous, it genuinely sounded like you didn’t realize, that’s my bad.
I thought you meant something that you didn’t. The second I realized, I admitted that I was at fault. I fucked up there, and I’m sorry for that.
And the very next thing you said was…
So yes, you apologized for assuming I didn’t understand what I was talking about, but you then double down ignoring the harassment I was bringing up. I’m not interested in discussing any part of this with you, we already have gone round and round. I was just shocked, amazed to read you today and had to highlight your lack of self awareness in saying
“I’ve never experienced it so you must just be imagining it”
Harassment of women with deepfakes has no impact or relevance, because hostility to women only has no impact or relevance to you.
I’m… a little confused. That comment of mine has nothing to do with my comment above or the post.
The post is about people’s ignorance, and their refusal to accept that there may be anything outside of their limited perspective.
I never said that your point wasn’t valid, or was made up. I simply didn’t agree with it, and had my own opinion. My last comment to you back then literally talked about the fact that I feel terrible for those negatively impacted by this, acknowledging that it’s a real thing that affects real people.
Someone acknowledging yet disagreeing with you isn’t the same at what’s in this post, and imo does it a massive disservice, as its about a lot more than that.
Here’s my comment for clarity:
Right now we live in a pretty puritan society, so the transitional phase is going to suck and people are going to be hurt. Obviously that’s awful, and none of this should take away from that fact, I feel horrible for the people negatively impacted by this.
And while that’s all true, it’s also true that as we continue going down this road we’ll reach a point where it simply won’t matter anymore.
The first part clearly addresses and acknowledges reality. I’m in no way dismissing it, pretending it doesn’t exist, or saying that “because I don’t experience it it isn’t real”. I fully acknowledge that it’s real and is a serious issue.
The second part is my own opinion in addition to it. It doesn’t take away from the first part, this isn’t a zero sum game, both can be true. I have my own opinion while fully acknowledging your own and seeing the validity of it.
Weird, this pulled more down votes than a lot of the posts around it.
I wonder why.
You ask that … on the internet…?
Because some of us just don’t like pizzacake
I don’t like them neither but have never found them so bad they deserve a downvote.
Besides being inane, it was their ubiquity on reddit that drove me to dislike them
Not to mention, it drove me mad how her comics devolved from sorta eh relatable stuff, to just complaining about hate and sexism and how terrible her fate is. If it’s really so bad that she can’t resist making half her comics about it, maybe she should take a break instead of going on this “everyone’s sexist, everyone hates me, they are all awful people” spiral. It was especially annoying how she ended up responding to legit constructive criticism the same way as the genuinely awful sexist shit, but I digress.
Do you feel similar with red dot comics?
I don’t mind either, but can see where you come from.
Something something feet pics
what the fuck is pizzacake
The name of the comic.
oh, so this comment probably dabbles on this kind of shit semi regularly then? Judging by how some people seem to respond at least.
The comic is written by a woman, so it deals with problems a woman can encounter.
Incels don’t like it when it isn’t about them.
I never go searching out pizza cake, but when i see it I will always downvote it.
Same, but in reverse.
Lol yeah me too. They’re no Wars and Peas but they’re pretty funny.
My conspiracy theory is people liked her until the OnlyFans then the incels came out because “sure wasn’t in her lane”. I say get that grip girl.
I never liked her and I don’t care about onlyfans.
is that even a stat you can gather on lemmy? I have no idea frankly.
Yep. Depends on the interface you’re using.
huh, cool. Yeah i don’t have that on my end at the moment.
On desktop I have to hover the pointer on the post points to see it.
Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: it’s pizzacakeSome people don’t know how to click downvote and move on with their day,
or make a comment,
or unsubscribe,
or make their own c/ComicsExceptPizzaCake community.Some people have to talk to the manager and waste my time.
Am I out of the loop?
Why don’t people like Pizzacake?
To summarise the discourse:
-
The artist makes boring unfunny comics and posts them to Reddit.
-
The comics always seem to have tons of upvotes, every time.
-
People question why they are allegedly so popular when they are boring and accuse her of buying upvotes.
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Artist then responds with misandrist drama comics about how all these evil men are out to get her.
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Everything becomes toxic as incels come out of the woodwork to attack her and feminists defend her comics in response.
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Everyone is too busy with their upvote/downvote wars to remember that the comics are actually garbage.
Damm, I didn’t know there were people with such a hateboner for pizzacake. Her stuff is not top shelf comedy but they tend to give me a chuckle consistently.
Completely agree. The normal silly comics are usually somewhat amusing. Can’t say I like her more misandry ones, but they tend to be responses to actual assholes, so I just ignore them and move on when I see them.
her more misandry ones
“A guy was shitty to me.”
“This is an attack on all guys!”
Actually it’s about ethics in comics journalism
To be fair, I’ve also seen a significant number of cases where a guy venting that a woman was shitty to him has been deemed misogyny unless he makes an explicit effort to make it clear he’s only talking about those specific women and it does not generalize to any woman not specifically mentioned.
Haha yeah the internet is cool huh
> Posts generic comic
> Comments are abusive
> Makes comic about abusive comments
> Abusers claim comic is abusive toward themUh huh.
Thanks for summarising.
I wish your anus well.
-
Hell if I know: I’d never even heard of it.
Some people don’t know how to click downvote and move on with their day,
The classic “Someone is WRONG on the internet!” phenomenon.
I legitimately don’t understand how a man can be blind to this kind of treatment of women. Don’t you just need to look at any treatment of women online for more than a nanosecond and you’ll see this?
My hypothesis is it’s two major parts:
- Protect one’s ego at all costs. Anything that makes you feel bad, at all, is to be rejected.
- Join in-groups that do not value or respect women.
For most people, belief is more social than we’d like to admit. So if your in-groups are a bunch of jerks who think women “talk too much” or whatever, you’ll probably adopt that. It’ll be continually reinforced from your socializing. Then with point #1, any time contrary evidence that does manage to break through you’ll reject it rather than doing any hard work or introspection.
Can you explain point 1 more? How do negative experiences online for women damage men’s egos?
I am by no means an expert on this.
But just spitballing, let’s imagine the victim (often but not always a woman) says something generalized like “Men are assholes online.” The man hears this, and since they are a man, and since men were just called assholes, they feel like they were called an asshole. That hurts the sense of self, the ego, to accept.
I think it’s the group identity thing, really? Like, the group they’re a part of was insulted, so they feel personally insulted. Accepting that the group isn’t great is hard for the brain. They don’t want to be part of a group that’s bad (men online) because that hurts their sense of self, the ego.
I’m a guy, but I don’t, like, care. Not in a gender-queer or trans way, but it’s just not a big deal to me. Maybe that’s why if someone’s like “Men are trash” I can just shrug. But if someone was like “People in New York City are pretentious, rude, assholes” I’d probably have an emotional response. But patriarchy is a much bigger and more wide spread issue, so it’s not really the same.
That makes sense. Perhaps sweeping generalisations should be avoided out of concern such a response could be triggered. FWIW, there are loads of sweeping generalisations about women too. Even the ones that look innocuous bother me.
Maybe! I meant to write in my previous one but forgot: often when the person is making the sweeping generalization in this kind of context, they’re upset. They’re annoyed. They’re not going to be their most kind, patient, self. You probably wouldn’t be if some strangers just told you they were going to [threats and insults].
So while it’s in a sense true that we should avoid broad generalizations, I think it’s fair to cut someone slack in this kind of context. They are probably not looking to be nitpicked.
Think about times you’re annoyed. Like, let’s say FedEx just delivered you a smashed package for the third time in a row. You go “FedEx sucks they always ruin my packages”. You probably don’t need or want someone to go “actually, them deliver more than 99% of packages with no problems. Maybe you should [unsolicited advice]”. It doesn’t matter if that’s true. That’s not what you’re looking for in that moment.
All of that aside, yeah, we should be mindful of speaking in absolutes.
Selfishness, ignorance, lack of empathy, inability to see more than one perspective, misogyny, the “Well, I’m alright, Jack.” mentality, and the ability to ignore all the evidence in order to maintain my own personal view are just some of the tactics I’m employing right now to openly disbelieve what you tell me is your own personal lived experience. Glad I could
mansplainexplain that for you. s/I suppose some men are just so used to their own toxicity that they just look down on anyone who “can’t take it”. Women suffer even more because they are more easily targeted and “will never be as tough”
my theory is that it’s just sort of universal across the internet. You have a wrong think in a group, and that group will delete you forever.
I think there’s a more specific version of this that ends up targeting women directly though.
We see it all the time with internet justice, someone posts rage bait, fake or real, people doxx them, people harm them, whatever. Shit like this just kind of happens. I think.
Neither side in this sex war seems willing to admit that both parties are deeply behaviorally flawed in terms of operating within an (at least in rhetoric) equitable society we all claim to want with one another.
I think step zero would be for both men and women to admit that both are deeply flawed in their engagement with one another, acknowledge both are trying to operate within sociocultural environments we are evolutionarily unprepared for, and therefore shouldn’t expect perfection or even competency from the other, so we can work to bridge the massive empathy deficit between us.
But since healing doesn’t trend on social media or in culture like vitriol, insult, or indignation, carry on.
“Please understand that a subset of your group is a serious threat to our safety”
briefcase unclasping noise
“Sure but step one is to define what the term safe really means in this context…”
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i would like to request a case study from the psych department, where we make another post once this has all blown over that just says “rape bad, don’t rape women MMmkay?” or something like that so we can see how the responses differ.
i’m not shitposting i just think we should do this.
Lol, you must be one of the guys that get offended by this or the bear meme. If you think stuff like this attacks all men or you directly, or that women have done wrong to men even 1% of what sexism and men violence has done to them you just need to close lemmy for an hour and read a bit. And im a man in case you were wondering, i just dont have my head inside my own ass.
Edit: just to make it clear to everyone reading this guy post where he talked about both sides and all that shit https://lemm.ee/comment/11953665 ended up just saying that for them womens problems are imaginary because they have a full belly and a roof. The story is always the same it doesnt take much to show when someone is such a level of sexist even when they are trying to hide it behind bullshit rethorics.
Have a happy Wednesday.
i will, maybe you will too when you understand there is no sex wars and its just 50% of the population just wanting to feel safe.
I hope you have a happy Wednesday regardless of your strongly held beliefs, unless one of them is wanting to have bad/unhappy Wednesdays, in which case I apologize for my transgression.
Oh my, the strongly held beliefs that everyone should be equal and feel safe around other people.
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Sure, im all in for that, it is part of being communist you know? But at the same time that doesnt mean i treat the problems inherent to being a woman in our society as minor problems. ;) Or are you saying that because there is homeless people and police harassment we should leave racism, sexism and other problems undiscussed? hmmmm, seems to me like you are trying to say that a big part of the earths population doesnt have the right to fight for a better life because there is people in worse conditions.
It certainly is remarkable that every time someone who Totally Isn’t Sexist and is Just Trying To Be Reasonable is on the topic of sexism, it will never take them long to go for ‘well other people are suffering more so sexism comparatively isn’t a real problem’.
PS: whatever role you think I have in “gender wars” you’re probably wrong.
i think you might… etymologically, be able to uh classify that statement as a “sex war”
like i get what we’re saying but there also kind of is, isn’t there?
Kinda hard to have an equal discussion when being a woman entails being sexually harassed and occasionally assaulted by a bunch of men, mostly ones you barely know or don’t know at all, on a regular basis before you even hit puberty. Your “sex war” is more like a sex genocide with the effects biting the whole male demographic in the ass, even the ones who didn’t cause it.
It’s also hard when most of the men that participate in this discussion (despite often not wanting to admit it at first) subconsciously think that women should listen to their venting 5 seconds after meeting them and be in a relationship with them and hug them and bang them and stuff. Seriously, interacting with guys just feels like gambling, with most of them forming some sort of unhealthy obsession with you and taking your kindness as a sign of weakness or inability to see their red flags; to a lot of guys, interaction with them is basically a green light to move on you. It sometimes feels like life is a “don’t unintentionally upset or engage with a random man too much or else he might find your phone number on the dark web and send you texts threatening to rape, torture, and murder you”. We live in a society where it’s relatively common for high school girls to have a guy classmate they occasionally talk to tell/text them that they wanna rape her, just unfiltered and out there because she decided to have a conversation.
Their problems are caused by patriarchy too, but that doesn’t mean I’m willing to subject myself to sexism from them. They, whether they realize it or not, feel like they deserve what they want from a woman, the unfairness of women not wanting them makes them frustrated and they see gender equality as a means to an end, they see it as a way to have women finally love them.
It’s not so much of “women and men are equally fucking up and need to make up” as it is “women are extremely scared by men, and negotiating with the likely emotionally unstable potentially violent people with nothing to lose who probably thought about you and them dating immediately after seeing you never seems like the good option”. It’s like encouraging kids to interact with people who they think are violent and might shoot up a school in order to convince them not to shoot up the school… Even talking to someone out of pity is endangering yourself.
Most guys want to get in your pants or eventually get to that point, whether you’re apathetic to them or nice to them or mean to them. How am I supposed to talk to guys about sexism when usually their main concern is the lack of action with women and my main concern is interacting with men is inherently extremely risky and I fear I’m about to get raped or murdered when a man raises his voice at me?
It has to be at least 95% of straight men who are the danger women have to do conversational twister with to be relatively safe and comfortable around, and the remaining portion of men usually take an “insult” about the majority of men as an “insult” to them.
Men and women are both negatively affected by our sexist system but the playing field is not level. The solution is getting a majority of men to realize exactly what women deal with from men, and getting them to actively work against their subconscious sexism to promote a safer environment for women and remove the high risk of interacting with men, including by halting the rampant objectification of women and their bodies, so women and men can actually be humans with each other for real. The widespread outrage things like the bear meme gets show that this probably isn’t going to work out any time soon. Men usually immediately think of it as a challenge to “prove” that women are worse by saying a lot of them are bitchy and hard to read and gold diggers or something, rather than a way to understand why women can’t feel safe around men the same way they can around women. But instead men think of it as how women feel about any single man, including them.
At least there are communities like !mensliberation@lemmy.ca that are on the right path though. Sigh.
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*Kinda hard to have an equal discussion when being a woman entails being sexually harassed and occasionally assaulted by a bunch of men, mostly ones you barely know or don’t know at all, on a regular basis before you even hit puberty.*genuine question, how do you expect it to get any better if you aren’t being civil?
The decision matrix here isn’t [civil engagement ||
or|| uncivil engagement], but rather:[civil engagement
andincur non-zero risk of uncivil retaliation ||or|| do not engage]Non-participation is the safer option, broadly speaking. If your speaking with a stranger, it’s better to let a minor slight slide, than to engage civilly. As you get to know someone better, as you become more familiar with conditions, this chart becomes a secondary consideration or even unnecessary. But with strangers, you never know if you’re dealing with an outlier.
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Considering it’s a whole lot of aggrieved bullshit revolving around civility-haranguing, you’re lucky the harangued respondent even gave that much. Posts like this are deadass why when debate pervs start debate perving to that magnitude, I respond with “I’m real happy you feel that way but I’m not reading all that shit”
Cause I want the 10 minutes it took me to get through all that ego-brain bullshit returned to my possession
Thank you for going out of your way to say this 💯
No because I personally am perfect and an exception.
You are, and no one else Mango.
GODDAMNIT I WAS GONNA CLAIM THAT
I just want it to stop, it could have been productive but there’s just too much vitriol now
On y va to the bookshop for a new thesaurus.
amen.
but that would require taking sex out of the equation. sex is what drives all of this misery on both sides. it’s much easier to empathize with people you don’t want to fuck, rather than seeing them as a in terms of sexual social dynamics, where those who are sexual desirable on both sides are given leeway in behaviour that is intolerable for those who are not sexual desirable.
I would absolutely agree with you, except for all the other lines humans are always eager to draw between ourselves to the point of undermining our own brothers and sisters. Race, religion, political affiliation, economic opinions, holy shit the lines we draw for socioeconomic status, these aren’t random divisions, we seek them out and make bright red angry lines, it is in our nature to draw lines in the sand between ourselves, a remnant of when there literally wasn’t enough to go around and only some survived a harsh winter.
To me, again, the first step would for us all to recognize this divisive nature within ourselves and acknowledge its existence to begin mitigating its detrimental effects using societal tools and culture eyes open. Same goes for greed, same goes for hate, our impulse to divide ourselves is destructive, our only hope is to acknowledge its there, it’s a near universal problem WE need to minimize.
We can’t though because we prefer to play pretend we are above our deeply ingrained animalistic programming, and would consider it insult to acknowledge those vestigial dark impulses are still part of us. But we need to, not to shame us, not to rationalize the cruelty that comes from them, but to add those variables into the equation of civilization so we can solve for homeostasis/relative happiness ans harmony. Denial/Repression is never the answer to anything. It makes things worse.
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I appreciate that I am not alone in having a better take
Yeah, don’t know about that, buddy. “Leftists are male-exclusive subtle fascists” reeks of “I have no clue about left wing ideology and my analysis of the world around me is based on a total lack of knowledge and a total lack of actual analysis”, but sure. Could be that leftists just do not respond well to you in particular.
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I do not tap into culture wars at all because that is some manufactured bullshit meant to take away focus on class struggle in the US, a country I am not even from. Feminism is not a product of this, but rather of the very same ideals that lay the foundation of socialism. Men abuse women in a multitude of ways all the time, and it is not close to symmmetric, which of course does not mean I refute the very real consequences of the converse.
Having the right positionsTM on the issues you bring in at the end, does not make me respect your disjointed post above.
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Real talk this some incel shit homie
i’ve been saying this the entire time, and weirdly, people seem to like it, or at the very least, stop commenting to my responses because they simply don’t want to engage because productive dialogue bad? Or something, idk it’s the internet don’t ask me, i’m not real.
Why? You should teach the same things to your son at the least for empathy , the most for prevension.
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What? Why shouldn’t his daughter and son be taught that sometimes, men act inappropriately and that women feel threatened and all the rest?
I think hes kidding bro :)
Yeah, I think it was a reference to an SNL skit from 1979? Not really as funny anymore.
The way my mother “taught” me doesn’t exactly leave me with a good impression of what women are about or why I should treat them any different from men.
We don’t talk anymore, and I will never have kids.
Well that last part is good. If you’d stay out of the woods it’d be appreciated as well.
Wait wait wait, being abused to the point of mistrusting people so much you don’t want to deal with them is now a good thing?
No, it’s probably the misogyny
Right, the misogyny of a victim not wanting to interact with the group their victomiser came from. Just like the comic was dealing with, to bad this chain was started from a man cause fuck men I guess?
Ah. There it is.
Did you not read the abuse story or are you wilfully ignorant?
I never said the abuse they suffered was a good thing. Nor that they have to interact with women at all. In fact both things I did say fit perfectly with them never interacting with women.
i’ll go into the damn woods if i please, keeps me farther away from you, and you farther away from me, which we’ll both appreciate at the end of the day. :)
If you read this comic and the first thing you’re concerned* about is how men feel, you’re part of the problem.
I am baffled by how humanity has managed to survive this long when so many men suck so fucking much. Then, when I think of it further, large portions of it was probably due to the women having no fucking choice, exemplifying one of many important ways in which men suck.
What about if I read it and thought, well online communities are hostile towards everybody?
They aren’t hostile in the same degree towards all groups. Sure, you may have people mock you on a voice chat after you get killed in a game, but the chances are nothing alike those of the harassment you will get for having a female voice.
so true men dont have feelings there is no reason to care about what they think or how they feel or how things affect them. Empathy is wasted on men, not that u had any of that anyways.
Are you OK, son? Nobody said all that.
not verbatim.
Not at all, take a deep breath and start assuming best intent or you’ll stress yourself out.
maybe take ur own advice once in a while, also there’s a difference between seeing thru other peoples shit and assuming the worst.
Grow up
again u should take ur own advice, empathy often comes with age maybe ull have some in some years.
one thing i’ve noticed, is that when you get into less moderated, harder to moderate, and less centralized services, particularly anti-censorship ones, you get a lot of shitty people congregating there. And the reason why is pretty simple, it’s because you can. Some of it is probably just edgy shitposting, because, internet. Some of it is also just genuine, because again, the internet.
So you get this weird thing where it fractures heavily, into to small communal groups, that each do their own thing. But you have a broad group of outliers, who generally exist outside of this space also, which means that it tends to be rather hit and miss what you find.
This is one of the reasons i really like the darknet conceptually. Yes there may be racism there, but you know what else isn’t there? Rules, and you know what that means? People can make their own however they please. Don’t like it? Go away, simple as that.
r/TalesFromYourServer: Kicking a Nazi out as soon as they walk in
I was at a shitty crustpunk bar once getting an after-work beer. One of those shitholes where the bartenders clearly hate you. So the bartender and I were ignoring one another when someone sits next to me and he immediately says, “no. get out.”
And the dude next to me says, “hey i’m not doing anything, i’m a paying customer.” and the bartender reaches under the counter for a bat or something and says, “out. now.” and the dude leaves, kind of yelling. And he was dressed in a punk uniform, I noticed
Anyway, I asked what that was about and the bartender was like, “you didn’t see his vest but it was all nazi shit. Iron crosses and stuff. You get to recognize them.”
And i was like, ohok and he continues.
"you have to nip it in the bud immediately. These guys come in and it’s always a nice, polite one. And you serve them because you don’t want to cause a scene. And then they become a regular and after awhile they bring a friend. And that dude is cool too.
And then THEY bring friends and the friends bring friends and they stop being cool and then you realize, oh shit, this is a Nazi bar now. And it’s too late because they’re entrenched and if you try to kick them out, they cause a PROBLEM. So you have to shut them down.
And i was like, ‘oh damn.’ and he said “yeah, you have to ignore their reasonable arguments because their end goal is to be terrible, awful people.”
And then he went back to ignoring me. But I haven’t forgotten that at all.
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Maybe antifa is the real fa.Think of it as ‘Exit’ or “No Smoking” or “Bus Stop” signs.
Not aesthetically pleasing, but needed for the common good.
Someone should make a find replacement copypasta with “Zionist” and “Palestinian” that would get some engagement
The biggest mistake new moderators make is allowing bad actors to use the rules against them. You can’t be too prescriptive, you can’t give them ammo to go “well this doesn’t technically violate any rule.” And when they complain you have a “don’t disrupt the community” rule and say it’s “too vague” just tag them as potentially a problem and see what they do. In my experience, they inevitably deserve a ban.
This is my experience moderating communities as well. The worst trolls get a kick out of testing how far they can stretch the rules and provoke mayhem without getting banned. Excessively explicit rules also trample over people who would usually cause no trouble, but get too tense under exceptional situations.
It’s amazing how disruptive 2-3 people can be in a community of hundreds or even thousands.
Users may hate “moderator discretion” as a rule, but by fuck do users hate not having it as well
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sdfsaf
I have zero thoughts or comments on this specific comic, but can we please leave pizzacake on reddit? They were already plenty inescapable enough there.
Do y’all have any justification besides hating something popular?
They’re boring and lame, and they have a cultish following of people who defend them not because they are actually good, but because the artist receives abuse.
This comic is a prime example of it. Completely unfunny, unoriginal, strawman argument that achieves nothing more than making people argue with each other.
The only arguing here is your cult of haters. Making the comic not a strawman. It’s about you.
The answer to the question was evidently “no.”
are other justifications needed? seeing the same shit in the same in the same style all the time gets boring regardless of any other factor.
When the response is ‘mods should ban this artist’s work,’ absofuckinglutely more justification is needed. Kneejerk hatred for something popular is childish. Whining about it to others is performative sneering. Expecting authority to enforce a shallow contrarian opinion is just plain shitty.
Underlined in bold when half the complaints go ‘We’re not like that! Fuck this bitch!’
true but wanting people to stop posting something and asking the mods to ban it are different things, if that is what u got from the original comment that is an extremely… extreme reading of it. If that is the context u had in mind for ur comment i dont disagree but imma be honest i think u misread it.
The politest comment in a wave of kneejerk backlash is still part of that wave.
i havent seen any comment here calling for it to be banned.
I never asked for mods to ban pizzacake, I asked the potential audience to practice a little bit of discernment in their tastes.
I think this is an important distinction, personally.
If it was pebbleyeet you’d have a point
My issue with pizzacake is her wildly sycophantic fans and their disingenuous bad behavior.
So as much as I may not be a fan of pizzacake, yeah I agree she obviously isn’t as awful or problematic as a literal Nazi and thus doesn’t deserve to be maligned the same way as pebbleshit does.
I don’t want to see this place turn into another worship space for pizzacake, but I also don’t believe that she personally deserves any ire or overt negativity as a person
At least it isn’t another heathcliff
I will take Heathcliff over pizza cake 10 out of 7 days of the weeks
Teach your son those things too.
Ah yes.
The group of men, which granted IS larger than it should be, that say stupid shit like this online or in person is not representative of men in GENERAL.
If I sat there and tried to bring out the worst characteristics my exes had for ALL women, I would be as much of an asshole as this comic creator is.
There will, unfortunately, ALWAYS be bad actors in the human race. Those that get their kicks from saying stupid shit like the man in this comic, because they have nothing better in life to do and probably hate their life so much that they do and say the stupid shit they do because they are broken people in one way or another.
Does that mean that all men are the same? No, of course not, and it’s kind of silly to even think that way to begin with.
Are all women as horrible, cheating and uncaring as my exes? No, of course not! I have a beautiful and caring woman in my life now who treats me well!
I think we sometimes let the minority outclass the majority, especially when trying to spin a narrative that basically ends up being: All men = bad All women = bad All white people = bad All black people = bad
The reality is, folks, that you need to keep the bigger picture in your mind at all times.
Did that group of people on an online forum act in bad faith? Yes? Then move on, and let their toxicity eat away at them until they no longer exist in this world. By giving them your time, and letting them upset you, you are doing exactly what they are wanting, which is to cause chaos and dissent for no real reason other than getting a rise out of someone or to fool someone else into thinking the same way.
My dude 100% confidentially came in here and went not all men.
Where the fuck does this comic make the assertion “all men”? What makes this comic creator an asshole (from this comic, I’m not aware of any of their other work)?
I think their point was that unless 100% of men are contributing to a problem, the problem clearly doesn’t exist, no matter how many women experience it.
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I was under the impression that you were going to stay out of gender discussions altogether. Am I mistaken? Normally people with modlog rap sheets this long have gotten site bans. We’ve really gone out of our way, and I’m starting to feel we’re being taken advantage of. You already got your ’grad account banned and you got this one banned from hexbear. If you can’t stop it I will.
This kind of apathy towards men is horrible, and I try to coerce people so that someone considers listening to us wanting a balance. I am trying to understand why there is no inclusivity for men and their concerns among the left. These kinds of posts, and comments on a similar tangent are very common here, and the weird part is these stereotypes are not even applicable for leftist, liberal, centrist and most men out there. Even some conservatives are not like this. Only a specific portion of rightwingers behave like this. Mainstream social media already spews this kind of vitriol, yet it is also here, and plenty cis men are on Lemmy that see this regularly.
We as men are not the baddies. And I am not even going to phrase it as a question, because it is a fact. Neither is it our fault, nor is it our doing.
I have never seen a piece of content removed for misandry at all. NEVER. It is always about misogyny. Why is that? I have helped build this platform in 4 years and crushed a ton of fascists, but this keeps bugging me, as on one hand I try to bolster the privacy community by myself, but on the other hand I keep seeing this non-inclusive stuff.
We as men are not the baddies. And I am not even going to phrase it as a question, because it is a fact. Neither is it our fault, nor is it our doing.
Then where is your ministry towards those who are perpetrators, who have created the conditions you complain about?
I have never seen a piece of content removed for misandry at all. NEVER. It is always about misogyny. Why is that?
Considering misandry tends to not leave men in SA’d and left in a chalk outline where misogyny very frequently does, I imagine that’s the answer to your question. It’s genuinely mindboggling to me that every time discussions or een metadiscussions of misogyny see you pull up on your #NotAllMen shit; right down to getting your lemmygrad account banned over it.
If we’re to accept your #NotAllMen spiel, then where was the #NotEveryMan like you to stop the man that happened to me? Where was the #NotEveryMan like you to stop what happened to my mother? My aunt? My grandmother? My little cousins? The point is this shit will not stop until our ministry isn’t aimed at women, but other men.
You’ll get nowhere complaining at the people our socialization wounds.
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I could go on and on, but I am pretty sure all this is just “misogyny” and I need to read certain theory and I need to surround myself with feminists who are thirsty to oppress men at all costs.
Feminists are not “hungry to oppress men at all costs”. You have no idea what feminism is, and its clear you’re getting all your information about it from right-wing chuds. I recommend reading more books and actually engaging with feminist theory, rather than watching anti-feminist / manosphere troll channels. There are plenty of resources we can recommend, that you should read before going on these rants.
Tread carefully, because we will not hesitate to issue temp ban for misogyny. Follow Mao’s advice here: No investigation, no right to speak.
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So am I; and I’ve even heard some of the same shit. Difference is, I have enough discernment to know that any “feminist” telling a male CSA survivor that they should never have spoken out, or that it "wasn’t rape because you liked it’ (that’s the variant I’ve personally heard, multiple times) is probably a radfem or a trad wearing kayfabe; who shouldn’t be looked to as an example of the broader movement.
Further, I refuse to let it poison my views of the movement as a whole because there is still a mass disparity between what WE have to go through and what THEY have to go through, and what THEY go through is infinitely worse. Discernment and empathy go a lot farther than “but what about MY feelings”.
oh sorry I am so misogynistic, I will shut up
Honestly, at this point, I do think you’re a misogynist on some level, because this isn’t the first time this discussion’s been had with you, and I’m not the first one to do it. Frankly, considering you’ve done nothing but intensify your debate perversion about this since getting banned from Lemmygrad over it, I find it deeply fucking ironic that you talk about ‘critiquing oneself’. Pot, kettle, hello!
I don’t think you can even parse how much it disgusts me that you’d quote Mao to justify the patriarchal policing of wounds to your own ego.
I think you’re pissed off at bourgeois feminist theory and bourgeois race theory, which are deserving of criticism, especially since they’re used as class weapons against non-whites both within the imperial core and the periphery. But you don’t get to use these bourgeois theories as an excuse to dismiss the proletarian ones, or as an excuse for bigotry. For example, just because a liberal Critical Race Theory was created and promoted to subsume/recuperate the original socialist theory doesn’t mean we can ignore the original.
Unfortunately ProleWiki doesn’t have much in this area as yet.
- https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Proletarian_feminism
- https://en.prolewiki.org/wiki/Critical_race_theory
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combahee_River_Collective
- The Combahee River Collective, 1977:A Black Feminist Statement
Much more often than not, “not all men” is used as a cudgel, similarly to how “not all whites” is, and the same goes for “men are oppressed” / “whites are oppressed.” How bad they are in comparison I don’t care to argue; it’s enough to say that they’re also bad. They are not false statements in themselves (as proletarian theories show), but they’re usually either misapplied or applied in bad faith.
Outside of gender topics, I personally have very much appreciated your contributions to the site in my comparatively short time here so far. Thank you. We have desperately few Global South voices here, never mind leftist ones, so that is a treasure, and I want this to be a welcoming space for such voices, so we can be exposed to more & more of them.
But this must also be a welcoming space for women. Because we’re intentionally not belligerent toward intellectually honest, good-faith liberals, creeping bourgeoisified feminism & CRT will sometimes surface contradictions between these two goals, which in my mind shouldn’t otherwise contradict. I don’t mean to imply that I’m an expert in this area, but I don’t think you’re equipped to resolve those contradictions, and I’m not sure you’re trying to. Whether or not they come from manosphere/MGTOW brainworms, your takes sound like they are, and we can’t have that.
Yeah, no, the comic isn’t about all men. It’s about the subset of men that take offense at any criticism of men and cry “not all men!” at it.
It’s hilarious talking about your point being proven by a double standard not being seen, when you are proving the point of the comic in the process.
It’s the damn bear. If the damn bear hadn’t been posted a few days ago, everyone would have been like yeah that sounds about right
Ah yes
Tell us where the bear touched you.
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What’s it like to be this oblivious?
Whew, you made a great rebuttal to something that someone somewhere said probably, but not this comic.
Then move on, and let their toxicity eat away at them until they no longer exist in this world.
Do you want MAGA? This is how you get MAGA.
To be fair, men would get near the same response. “Stupid bitch slut Ken”. The hate is the same, only the names change. The internet is a hateful place with a multitude of people willing to step up and shit on you for expressing any sort of individuality or emotion.
Men would get that response from whom?
Strawmen. Very dangerous creatures.
Your preconceived notions are part of the problem.
me :) i do that :) me:) (but only consensually)
Oh my, I guess you just love the approval of someone consenting :) you dirty :)) consent-horny :-) slut :)
The internet. It’s a hateful place if you haven’t noticed.
And who on the internet exactly?
The computers aren’t going to do so on their own (yet)
The whole point of the place is anonymity. This enables people to do things they otherwise wouldn’t, particularly when it comes to the treatment of others. How have you not noticed this?.. Like have you taken 15-20 minutes and actually given this any thought or are you just going off of emotion?
does it matter? in an unrelated but topical example is the patriarchy acceptable when it is upheld by women against other women?
also from everyone the answer is from everyone.
Lol
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To her, probably.
Obviously not to him
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The irony here is so thick, it’s absolutely incredible.
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Avoiding slurs is good, but you’re still claiming that her experience is impossible because you’ve never experienced the same thing.
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In their right mind
Some weirdos take correction or rejection as a personal attack, and subscribe to the ethos that the best defense is a good offense.
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Yeah the comic is pretty dumb, it’s definitely an over simplification. Just recognize that dudes being aggressive is a thing, even if it’s not all dudes, because it certainly isn’t.
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so true only men can be aggressive that is a uniquely male thing so its worth pointing it out over the reality that all people are aggressive at times
Aggressive men exist ≠ only men can be aggressive. This is why we teach a small amount of formal logic in school.
Yeah, I’m gonna disagree with you here. Lots of people are really comfortable being excessive shits online, especially when they have some sort of grievance. PizzaCake is like a fucking lodestone for disdain, so this has definitely happened. Worse has definitely happened.
Assuming, of course, that we’re both on the same page that this comic is an illustration of an online conversation and not, like, meant to be taken literally.
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Well there’s definitely no literal psychopaths on the internet, at least we’re safe here…
/s
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Well that definitely escalated.
Online communities are hostile. Period. Stop making everything gendered.
