- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- news@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- worldnews@lemmy.ml
- news@lemmy.world
Newsweek
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It’s heartbreaking seeing shell shocked children covered in dust and blood or parents weeping for their dead kids. There is no sanctuary for these people. Then Israelis call them “human animals” while claiming to be the “most moral army in the world” without any sense of shame. They are depraved.
You saw the shell shocked kid? That was horrific. If you watch that video and still support Israel you are a sociopath. Here is the kid.
Absolutely heartbreaking. And on the other side, there are IDF soldiers partying because they killed children. On the hills, there are Israeli citizens throwing watch parties of Palestinians’ houses being bombed. If an orthodox Jewish, Israeli journalist expresses basic empathy with Palestinians, other Israelis go surround his house and threaten him for being a decent human being. HOW are zionists victims of ANYTHING??? And to ward off any accusation of anti-semitism: this behavior has NOTHING to do with what Judaism actually says. No religion actually says this type of dehumanization is right. This has NOTHING to do with Judaism, it has everything to do with pure racism and colonialism. Nazism in short which, it seems, some Jewish people in Israel forgot everything about - and that’s the worst part.
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Got me. Now leave me alone and go back to watching football in memeville.
Edit: Better yet. Don’t focus on me and actually read the article posted.
I think they meant “if anyone watches that video and…”
“You” is used as a collective pronoun when directed at a group of people.
I think some of the reading-comprehension-challenged crowd would do well if we brought back youse as the plural of you.
We already have a word for that: Y’all!
All y’all
“Y’all” too
It could help, but alongside all the 99+ existing ones I can not general comprehension would not change seen significant improvement.
I know, I was trying to point that out but now I read it, looks like I was implying that you’ve misused it :)
Its heart breaking. If they played these videos on national news rather than parroting “Israel’s right to defend itself” propaganda then this massacre would be stopped.
Or, we might find the so called “centrists” aren’t really that moderate after all.
The adults saying “don’t be afraid,” it’s like gaslighting. I know that’s not what they intend. But that little kid just learned what shelling is and there’s no “don’t be afraid,” after that.
When I get to be in charge, Israel will be sanctioned, little kids won’t suffer violence, and housing will be free. Until then, this is fucked and I don’t like it.
What’s your plan? How do we get you in charge?
Yes, its quite obvious to everyone that has no power in the world.
With how often we, the United States, shove our fingers into every whisper of a conflict I’m shocked that we’re not only involved in this conflict (by proxy, not for reals, take that international courts) but somehow ended up on the wrong side of it. It’s like it wasn’t enough to just be helpless, we had to add a whole extra layer.
It’s really weird when considering the Ukraine situation. For a moment I thought US was just doing the right thing. Nope, they just are anti Russian, not necessarily pro Ukraine.
Use the opportunity to take this lesson to heart: the vast majority of governments only choose their geopolitical behavior depending on their own self-interest. The cases where countries sacrifice anything remotely significant for the sake of taking ethical decisions are rare and few. They will only change this attitude if the general public demands it to the point of them risking losing power.
Moral righteousness has never been a consideration, militarily speaking.
Yeah this is what a lot of people have been saying for a while. It is a meaningful difference.
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Worth repeating that when American evangelical Christians support Israel, it’s because of they think it will bring about the literal end of the world, and to them that is a good thing. I assume that’s not Biden’s angle, but it’s certainly the angle of a significant portion of Republicans.
The only thing I think of with this conflict is the Doctor Who speech on war:
Because it’s not a game, Kate. This is a scale model of war. Every war ever fought right there in front of you. Because it’s always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who’s going to die. You don’t know who’s children are going to scream and burn. How many hearts will be broken! How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill until everybody does what they’re always going to have to do from the very beginning – sit down and talk!
A beautiful sentiment, but sometimes it’s about forcing people to sit and talk who wouldn’t otherwise do so. It’s rare, but the US civil war was an unfortunate necessity.
Everybody just needs to sit in a room and do Molly together. No war. Just massage.
For real, though, MDMA is shockingly good at conflict resolution, lol.
I agree, there was a lot that could have been done to avoid it but humans (as a group) are stupid.
There’s just some lines that should not be crossed, genocide, slavery, etc. and when that happens it comes down to who has the bigger stick and can stomach the suffering.
I am not an expert by any means, what I am sure of is that there were opportunities for dialog but humans did what humans do best. They ‘othered’ the fuck out of each side and made sure that this was the only possible outcome.
Which is no problem for them! Since they’re going to be rewarded in the afterlife! So who cares that they just shit in the proverbial sandbox!? /s
Yes; Ultimately, there will be an agreement at the negotiation table.
But as long as there is a disagreement over where that final line will be drawn …
As long as one party thinks they can get a better result on the battlefield …
The fighting will continue.
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Legalize dueling when
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https://youtu.be/pO1HC8pHZw0?si=-feCVXTcNRbBwvLc
As a child of the 80s.
I was expecting War Pigs, but thats a couple decades earlier.
Frankie is also relevant, though.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/pO1HC8pHZw0?si=-feCVXTcNRbBwvLc
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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As had been happening for almost 100 years with this particular pair of combatants.
No, if you kill everybody on the other side, you don’t have to sit and talk. Or if you can kill enough so that they’ll themselves guess what you want and give it to you so that you wouldn’t kill the rest.
This quote ignores the issue of sociopaths, which may constitute up to 10% of people in every group.
So to prevent bloodshed you have to be strong enough to defend yourself. No other way.
Weapons usable in war should be as easy to get as notebooks and pens. Or at least as smartphones. Then we’ll see some kind of peace (the medieval way, there’ll be more small-scale violence, but less large-scale violence as in war, and less death all things considered).
Weapons usable in war should be as easy to get as notebooks and pens. Or at least as smartphones. Then we’ll see some kind of peace
The one country in which this is a reality shows the exact opposite. There’s more small scale hun violence in the USA as any other place in the world. It’s not even close.
I think you’ve just demonstrated inability to read. I literally said that there’ll be more crime with such instruments involved, but fewer large-scale wars.
And I wasn’t talking about small arms, I was talking about FPV drones, small mortars and other such things.
You were applying “a well armed society is a polite society” to geopolitics. I disagree. Weapons are what you fall back on after all the other options have failed. A “ballot box, jury box, ammo box” sort of deal.
Education and tolerance are the tools of peace. If your leaders are extremists who can’t compromise, pointing fingers for who you should hate more, jump to labels and teams, and issue ultimatums rather than dialogue, then you are on a road to war.
Weapons are what you fall back on after all the other options have failed.
Again you may, others may not think this way. It takes only one side to start a war.
Education and tolerance are the tools of peace.
Because real education and real tolerance make you stronger in war.
If your leaders are extremists who can’t compromise, pointing fingers for who you should hate more, jump to labels and teams, and issue ultimatums rather than dialogue, then you are on a road to war.
You are also on a road to war indefinitely if this is how the neighboring society’s leaders are.
Yeah if there’s anything the united states isn’t involved with its large scale wars…
Which is irrelevant, because USA is not an illustration of my proposition. #2
You see the main weapon of war is capital. It’s hideously expensive to wage war, that’s why it’s not for individuals. Whatever weapons you have you won’t have the ability to wage any kind of war against your country of origin. Whatever weapons you buy.
It’s hideously expensive to wage war, that’s why it’s not for individuals.
You haven’t been paying attention in the last few years. Most effective innovations of modern war (and that’s not what Northrop-Grumman or IAI advertise, that’s what Shia combatants in Syria, Ukrainian military in, well, Ukraine, etc actually use to fight their enemies) are very cheap.
Anyway, it’s not unheard of in history of wars for a completely outclassed economically side to emerge victorious.
This quote ignores the issue of sociopaths, which may constitute up to 10% of people in every group.
And I think im replying to one right now.
And I think
That’s where you’re mistaken.
I’ve described what the other side attacking you might think of your “we’ll have to sit and talk eventually” ideas.
This quote ignores the issue of sociopaths, which may constitute up to 10% of people in every group.
How so? You don’t have to have empathy to see the non-human costs. Or do I not understand what you’re saying?
Weapons usable in war should be as easy to get as notebooks and pens. Or at least as smartphones. Then we’ll see some kind of peace (the medieval way, there’ll be more small-scale violence, but less large-scale violence as in war, and less death all things considered).
Correct me if I’m wrong. What I’m understanding from this is that your claim is that more weapons means more peace on a larger scale? I could agree, in theory, if we were still fighting with sticks and blades. However it seems like you’re claiming that making modern weapons of war accessible as notebooks and pens is the solution to large-scale violence?
Sociopaths don’t give a shit about the costs unless they directly hinder their goals.
How so? You don’t have to have empathy to see the non-human costs. Or do I not understand what you’re saying?
For humans, including sociopaths, costs are subjective. Wiping out their enemy completely may be preferable to having some economic gain simply due to satisfaction.
I could agree, in theory, if we were still fighting with sticks and blades.
Pay attention to what they use now in actual war zones. These are definitely not sticks and blades, but in many cases commodity hardware.
Also, to be honest, typical Soviet field artillery pieces and ammunition for them are not so expensive and complex to produce or even buy. They’d still have uses.
However it seems like you’re claiming that making modern weapons of war accessible as notebooks and pens is the solution to large-scale violence?
Yes, because of the weaker side always being able to inflict some damage on the attacker.
Notebooks and pens were an exaggeration, of course, and I meant not things like tanks and jets, but, again, small drones, small mortars, dumb MLRS like Soviet M-8 (“mountain Katyusha”) and similar guerilla stuff.
I hate to say it, but maybe some groups of people need the shared experience of war to find common ground with each other enough to sit down and talk. Before that, they perceive they have nothing in common and treat people as “other.”
The perception of “other” being specifically programmed by various leaderships through propaganda and population conditioning is a separate but related issue.
How quickly we forget history. You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself come a villain.
I had a similar thought recently. Germans were a victim of WW1. Then became aggressors and the Jews were victims in WW2. Now Israel is the aggressor and Palestinians are the victims. Just a thought.
The German state in WW1 was as last as greedy for territory as it was in the second world war. They through they could improve they land holdings in Europe and in Africa. They were one of the leading causes the war escalated into a world war, instead of a Balkan one.
Hence the severity of the reparations that were forced upon her. You could argue (like Hitler did) that the reason Germany had to surrender was a betrayal of the jews, and he convinced many to put the blame of losing the war was that people, not the Germans.
We all know where that lead. There’s one thing, though that you cannot claim, it’s that Germany was a victim of WW1. The Emperor, his hawkish generals, politicians and investors bit off more than they could chew and got served the bill.
I don’t care.
Stupid on purpose. You be you
It was an errant thought that you dissected, for what, pride. It wasn’t meant to be 💯 technically correct.
Don’t make the comment if you don’t want to engage with responses to it
How about you address the article in the post. What did you think about it?
Username checks out
Germans were a victim of WW1.
That’s … an interesting way to describe the power which practically controlled Ottoman empire’s state apparatus so that it wouldn’t crumble through the years which cleansed Asia Minor and Western Armenia of civilized presence by murdering and breaking people constituting that presence in every way possible.
Which was also allied to Austria-Hungary which started the war in the first place, and also committed plenty of war crimes in Serbia and Western Ukraine.
Obviously Germans themselves did plenty of that too.
It’s just that the war wasn’t on German territory mostly.
Which was also allied to Austria-Hungary which started the war in the first place
Last time I checked it was Serbia that started the war.
Serbia agreed to almost every point of the AH ultimatum regarding the investigation of FF’s murder. The one they rejected was about Serbian police working under AH supervision or something like that. Something no nation would accept, both extremely humiliating and dangerous.
Anyway, rejecting an ultimatum doesn’t give you right to invade. It may be polite and civilized to give ultimatums in general, as compared to outright invasion without warning, but see the previous sentence.
Germans were a victim of WW1.
umm
Perhaps victims of the aftermath though. But not like Jews whose worst crimes are mythological.
I don’t think Maccabee was mythological. He forcefully converted a lot of different ethnic groups into Judaism. Ironically, I would argue he was a giant step for a Palestinian identity as what do all these “Jews” get called when they convert to Christianity in Roman Palestine?
Yes, the aftermath.
Germans were one of the aggressors in WW1.
They were also a victim after losing.
But Jews weren’t aggressors before WW2.
I won’t argue, that the Israeli government is anti-democratic and tries to dehumanise palaestinians. But comparing them with a regime that industrialised the murder of (not only, but especially) jews is absurd.
You seem to be arguing. You’re focused on the aggressors. I’m focusing on the victims. This was not historical. It was a shower thought. I just found it interesting, nothing more.
Germans were a victim of WW1.
What a way to start a history analogy… 😬
Well they allied with the country that got their leader assassinated, while I wouldn’t call them a “victim” until the post war period when everyone agreed that it was exclusively their fault somehow, most people have no fucking clue why WW1 was started and just assume it’s “Nazis round 1” which just… Isn’t true in the slightest.
Austria Hungary lost their archduke to a serbian assassin and then Germany used it as an excuse to take land and invade neighboring countries. While not a good thing, it’s not much different than what every other country in the history of warfare has done.
Great point. Seems we are still paying the price for old sins.
The Nazis deliberately spread their propaganda in the middle east. Just a thought.
Ya know. I could edit my comment or try to explain it better, but what’s the point? People want to hate so I’ll let them.
That quote is so stupid. Not everyone is inevitably fated to turn to evil. Sure, humanity is inherently evil, but we can make the choice to be better than that.
And that’s assuming heroism is morally good and villainy bad anyway, and I have serious beef with that assumption.
Well, sometimes you can replace “villain” with “a miserable thieving creature that may not be a villain, but can’t even die with dignity”.
That’s about a certain subset of Armenians who aren’t anything like heroes themselves and eagerly betray others who are. Who happen to control Armenia’s government.
This is off topic, of course. I’m just confused whether to envy Israelis who seem to lack this particular problem.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
An Israeli historian and Holocaust scholar has called how Israel is treating Palestinians in Gaza “a textbook case of genocide.”
Israel’s official account on X, formerly known as Twitter, said: “Unlike the barbaric enemy we are fighting, we do everything we can to keep innocent civilians safe.”
“This dehumanizing language is clearly calculated to justify the wide scale destruction of Palestinian lives; the assertion of ‘evil,’ in its absolutism, elides distinctions between Hamas militants and Gazan civilians, and occludes the broader context of colonization and occupation,” he wrote.
that the attack by Hamas was “a horrendous war crime,” but using the term “evil” to describe the militant group is to “decontextualize” and “enhance the widespread fantasies of Israelis today that they’re fighting Nazis.”
He referred to a recent television interview where former Israeli Prime Minister Naftali Bennett lashed out at an anchor for asking about the Palestinian civilians suffering in Gaza by declaring, “We’re fighting Nazis.”
There is a “long history” of this “shameful use of Holocaust memory, which Israeli politicians have used to justify, rationalize, deny, distort, disavow mass violence against Palestinians,” Segal said.
The original article contains 795 words, the summary contains 185 words. Saved 77%. I’m a bot and I’m open source!
Who’s a good bot? 🐶
I am!
oh shi–
😆
The people in charge of both sides are evil. Picking sides in this fight is like picking sides in fucking Game of Thrones.It’s not a complex argument. Israel is an apartheid, Jews only state, set up on land stolen from its indigenous people. Nothing equivocal about it. And they have been terrorizing, murdering, torturing, starving, imprisoning and humiliating them ever since. And there is a huge extremely well funded lobby in the US ensuring that things like what just happened, with Biden pledging 100 billion dollars of taxpayer money to Israel to keep doing what they are doing, which is genocide, keep happening.
Zero equivalence, the basic concept of Israel is pure, 100% apartheid. Don’t you dare say “six of one, half a dozen of the other,” not close at all, not even in the same universe!
And Hamas is a peaceful group of protestors that totally didn’t invade Israel with the sole purpose of slaughtering as many civilians as possible.
Both sides suck in this conflict, and the civilians suffer for it.
Hamas is shit. But don’t forget that all the other more peaceful options have been amputated by Israel during all these years.
Its not stolen land, it was given to them and sold to them and in addition they fought a completely legal war against people who wanted to annihilate them and won the land. They were willing to share, but the arabs in their war against them made it clear that not only wouldn’t they share, but they would do everything they can to eradicate them from the land, like the peace loving, non apartheid, democratic valued nation they are. These points are not relevant today because both peoples are in the land and there must be a solution to find peace without either of them just dissapearing. They have no choice but to share it or some other country offer safe haven for refugees, as so far none have, not of the arab countries or the west, not unilaterally and collectively. Only israel allows them to stay in israel, even after all the wars and all the terrorist attacks and all the government who pledge to annihilate israelis. If you want to discuss funding, talk about all the millions and billions given to the palestianians from foreign aid, yet they cannot even feed their own people. Talk about the millions of dollars of funding from Iran and other terror supporting states that is given to support the continuation of the attacks against israel. If someone cares to prove me wrong, I’m waiting… Every person hsa the right to defend themselves and taking land is a part of that. If someone is shooting at you from a hill, you have the right to take that hill to defend yourself from that attack and any future ones. That’s exactly what happened all over Israel in many disputed areas. If you want to talk about settlments you can talk about settlements, but saying that the whole land of Israel is stolen is simply untrue.
I would like to point out that West offered to take refugee to the middle east but instead millions of economic migrants came and overloaded western social benefit systems. It’s not easy to take more and feed them as well.
Not a single word of what you said is true.
Firstly, you can prove it yourself by checking the (friendly) photos shared between Israel and Palestine at the beginning.
Secondly, don’t believe me, just have a look at the political maps of the area, especially how Israel expanded over Palestine territories, every years since 1970. It helps having a merciless army like Israel.
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whataboutism
Oh shit you got him.
Come on, let’s not pretend what is happening to indigenous Americans today is the same as the current genocide in Palestine. On top of that, that comment doesn’t even refute the idea if also providing reparations to indigenous Americans.
Palestina is not only “state” that was there before thou. It’s piece of land that changes ownership every few hundred years if not decades.
So it’s not really valid to say what was before because then somone can say even before that it was different. Then it will keep on going until beginning of history and both Palestinians and Israeli would have to leave. As opposite if we say let’s look only certain time back then we might end up going closer to present in same manner.
IMHO this conflict has to be solved with todays borders (Not adding more land no IzraelI or Palestina).
What do you think should happen to the state of Israel?
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They were so good at stealing that they gave the original owners financial compensation for the land and then stole it right under their noses… even took pictures of it those crooks… https://imgur.io/5fYx5Ud
Well yeah, the United States did the same to native Americans, condemning Israel would be too much on the nose even for them.
I fucking hate that argument. It’s the same kind of mentality that says there is a 50% change of raining tomorrow, because either it rains, or it doesn’t.
It’s the #AllLivesMatter take for the middle east
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That’s a whole bunch of incorrect assumptions for you. Change your mind? I’m old and value my time enough to leave fools alone. I still enjoy pointing it out though.
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Good one. Keep being consistent.
This is a continuation of the crusades to 75% of those involved. I’m surprised nobody is framing it universally like that.
Huh, well put. I believe in the same thing, but never been able to summarize quickly. Thanks I’m gonna exain it like this now on.
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Idk man, I think hot pie should have been king.
Don’t both sides this. Don’t make excuses for Israel’s genocide. Israel is the one with the power here. They control Gaza completely and have the monopoly of the violence.
Kinda can’t outsee them festival people either. Sorry I’m gonna look at both sides with utmost try to stay rational .
Maaaan fuck this shit. I hate centrists so much. Is there an EnlightenedCentrist community on lemmy yet?
You say you look at both sides to “stay utmost rational” when it is so fucking easy to clearly condemn the actions of Hamas, a terrorist jihadist group, and see how Israel keeps promulgating the conditions for extremists groups to crop up, oh and they are also committing a genocide. Like if you care about innocent people dying, like these festival people, OR MAYBE kids, then you’d want Israel to stop this shit. Your centrist attitude is the logic that will get more people killed. You take a more passive approach and just raise your hands while Israel is mowing down people saying "I can’t see the difference between the two! They are the same! So what is best is I take no action and take no stance while I sit on this iron wall and watch all of this happen.
Before I get all the regular responses, I am just going to copy and paste my other comment. I won’t be bothering responding to you if you don’t read it and make a comment I already address.
The median age of Palestine is 18. More than half of the people living in Palestine didn’t vote for Hamas, and it isn’t like this jihadist group will allow fair elections as they consolidate power. And even then, Israel isn’t allowing an avenue of diplomatic relations when they control essentials like water, keep taking land from them, killing journalists and diplomatic leaders, and bombing schools and hospitals (Israel has a well documented history of bombing Palestinian schools and hospitals).
The only way diplomacy will work is if Israel gives major concessions and they never will. Israel is creating the situation where extremists will rise and come into power. We saw this many times with America and Al Quaeda, Isis, taliban.
Let me ask the questions: Is Palestine its own state? If so, then Israel shouldn’t have control to all of these resources like power and water. If so, then they should actually autonomous. If so, why does Israel keep taking land, killing them?
Is Palestine part of the state of Israel? Then why do they do this to their own people? Because they “elected” Hamas? Then why does Israel put them in a condition to allow extremists to form? Imagine you are given a choice to die of starvation, dehydration, a bullet or rocket. That radicalizes people and gives them the ignition to take on arms.
And keep in mind I am not condoning Hamas. They are a jihadist terrorist group who are also harming the Palestian people. If they cared about Palestine, they would not have done the Oct 7th attack because they’d know Israel would retaliate 100 fold. Hamas are pieces of shit. Israel is creating the conditions that don’t allow diplomatic way forward, and allow the rise of extremist groups.
I am not making excuses for Israel's genocide. You're right. Obviously, Israel is more evil and Israel has more control over this situation. But they're both evil. All I'm saying is that it is stupid to support the least evil side. Fuck them both, really. The situation will not be resolved until leadership on *both sides* changes. So, yeah, if you don't mind, I am going to "both sides" this.You are making excuses because you have vacuumed out all the nuance to this. You are ignoring the third party in this situation which are the Palestinians, the victims in all this. You say Israel is more evil, and that Israel has more power here, and you still relinquish their control and influence of this situation. You are effectively saying, “hey, as long as both sides don’t change leaders keep doing what you are doing!” This can’t be said and done when Israel is actively committing a genocide.
I’ve shown you already how easy it is to condemn both sides but hold enough poise and nuance to understand supporting the Palestinians has nothing to do with supporting Hamas. I’ve explained the reasons why this situation has occurred. Let me emphasize again:
A genocide is occurring in Palestine. A genocide is occurring in Palestine.* Once again for those in the back, a genocide is occurring in Palestine. A genocide purported by Israel, a genocide in which they have all control and power in stopping.
You make a lot of assumptions about my position. You don’t seem to care what I think. I ask you questions. You haven’t asked me any. Overall, you are not very interesting to talk to.
Then how should they make peace with Hamas?
Fuck peace with Hamas. They need to be eradicated. We see what happened in Afghanistan and the Taliban. They would continue oppressing the Palestinians and hoard resources and other crap. I understand the sentiment as well, of wanting to make sure you don’t share a space or “border” with a terrorist organization.
What needs to be done is Israel needs to create the conditions where a diplomatic solution can be achieved. This means they need to stop assassinating journalists and diplomatic delegates. They must also make more concessions and promises (that can be made through legislation) that makes sure their power, water, electricity, internet and other basic necessities won’t ever be cut off. The internet one is a huge one because we need to make sure the Palestinians have a way to record and document things from their perspectives. We can see right now what cutting their internet has done. A lot of misinformation and propaganda.
Israel will need to make even more concessions like actually giving land back and minority protection. Stop using them as cheap labor (which is eerily similar to how Americans use immigrants). Help provide aid and funds to build schools and hospitals. You know how big this last one would be? The perspective towards Israel from the world, let alone Palestine, would be huge and open so many bridges of diplomacy.
Israel needs to stop taking away the basic things needed to achieve all this. They need to stop murdering innocent people. If I lost my home, my wife, and if I especially lost my son to an errant attack from Israel I of course would be pissed. Imagine now I am hungry, thirsty, living on the streets, sick. I understand why some Palestinians would take up arms, because at that point I would be starring at the end of my barrel. The deaths of innocents need to stop.
How does one eradicate Hamas?
By doing what I stated. You remove the conditions for extremism to exist to make Hamas as unfavorable as possible. Then Israel can help host an election making it as fair as possible so a proper representative of their people can be elected. If there is enough favorability, good will, and no hopelessness, then hopefully Palestine will elect a better representative. This may take generations though.
If there is no reason to follow and support Hamas, then there is no reason for it to exist.
Well, then we are in agreement. You just don’t seem to like how I express the same ideas you have lol.
it seems you can’t be bothered with any thing more than 2 lines of stereotypical rhetoric.
Talk about not bothering.
Etuomaala is correct. Both sides pick shitty leadership. Both sides are constantly fucking with the other side in a deadly game. However, one side is grossly overpowered relative to the other and is constantly stealing land while committing apartheid.
Yeah, they’re both assholes. Just one’s a shitload stronger and never ever stops fucking with the little guy.
The median age of Palestine is 18. More than half of the people living in Palestine didn’t vote for Hamas, and it isn’t like this jihadist group will allow fair elections as they consolidate power. And even then, Israel isn’t allowing an avenue of diplomatic relations when they control essentials like water, keep taking land from them, killing journalists and diplomatic leaders, and bombing schools and hospitals (Israel has a well documented history of bombing Palestinian schools and hospitals).
The only way diplomacy will work is if Israel gives major concessions and they never will. Israel is creating the situation where extremists will rise and come into power. We saw this many times with America and Al Quaeda, Isis, taliban.
Let me ask the questions: Is Palestine its own state? If so, then Israel shouldn’t have control to all of these resources like power and water. If so, then they should actually autonomous. If so, why does Israel keep taking land, killing them?
Is Palestine part of the state of Israel? Then why do they do this to their own people? Because they “elected” Hamas? Then why does Israel put them in a condition to allow extremists to form? Imagine you are given a choice to die of starvation, dehydration, a bullet or rocket. That radicalizes people and gives them the ignition to take on arms.
And keep in mind I am not condoning Hamas. They are a jihadist terrorist group who are also harming the Palestian people. If they cared about Palestine, they would not have done the Oct 7th attack because they’d know Israel would retaliate 100 fold. Hamas are pieces of shit. Israel is creating the conditions that don’t allow diplomatic way forward, and allow the rise of extremist groups.
The author is an expert, are you?
People do it anyway, though, don't they...
I’m really impressed that Newsweek would publish thi.
They only could publish it because the Holocaust scholar is Jewish. In the current media zeitgeist the only people who can criticize the Israeli government are Jews. Nobody else can say anything. Which is part of the current problem, nobody’s able to critique or criticize the actions of the Israeli government without being labeled as anti-Semitic in the West.
I think a lot of people are going to wake up to this hypocrisy. I’ve seen more open criticism of Israel during this conflict than at any time before, which is quite surprising.
Turns out that in the 24/7 media ecosystem we now live in, it has become much more difficult to frame yourself as a permanent victim class while also commiting heinous atrocities in an asymmetrical fashion.
Plus after the “War on Terror” the appetite for another Middle Eastern quagmire is quite limited. The backlash from the general public if the United States were to be dragged into this conflict, beyond throwing money at it as a show of diplomatic support, would be swift and severe.
It went a similar way with South African apartheid. It took decades of things getting worse before the rest of the world even took notice - the first segregation laws were passed in 1908. It was first 40 years later the official Apartheid laws came into force. In the 1960’s, more than half a century after segregation started, the ANC gave up being peaceful. In the late 70’s they went from sabotage to starting to kill people. In the 1980’s ANC was consider a terrorist organization by the US and UK governments, and in 1987 Mandela was explicitly called a terrorist by Thatcher.
In 1990 the regime gave in.
Because the pressure had finally built to an unsustainable level, despite the fact that just a few years prior some of the most powerful countries in the world were still calling their main opponents terrorists.
This, by the way, is not intended to compare Hamas with ANC; ANC did also carry out terror, but not at nearly that scale, and of what they did carry out it’s unclear which parts of the leadership approved what
The point is the timescale. How long it took before people started giving more than lip service to turning their back to an Apartheid regime that had gotten worse for their entire lives while they ignored the oppression, and how rapidly it snowballed once it first became accepted to turn your back on the regime, and then expected, and then a necessity to prevent people from turning their backs on you.
I agree with you there’s more open criticism of Israel this time. In part, I think because there’s been a slow drip of increasingly prominent organisations applying the Apartheid label in recent years from sources that are harder and harder to dismiss, and particularly the slowly growing acceptance that Gaza and the West Bank functions as bantustans. It makes it harder to just shout down critics.
And this can, and likely will, turn really fast once things truly starts to accelerate. A couple of big PR missteps and Israel will risk the opposition to BDS crumbling as well, and then the regime will be well and truly fucked.
Fantastic breakdown, and history refresher. Thanks for taking the time!
It will certainly be interesting to see how closely these two situations will ultimately parallel one another as time goes on.
Actually much easier and Israelis have been very successful in this.
It’s just that they got complacent. Why - because they are possibly the first state to abuse that media ecosystem on strategic levels, so they considered themselves invincible.
Or maybe they didn’t get complacent, just the world is changing and they no longer see value in that old architecture of propaganda.
Say, they also really honestly know a lot of modern warfare and contributed a lot to it. And what’s being used against them by Hamas and Hezbollah is in many things their own science. They simply forgot that others can improve on what they’ve been taught and not just blindly copy stuff.
Or maybe they see value in having Hamas and Hezbollah existent and with such military architecture. Better the devil you know and all that.
The gaslighting just won’t stop. Terrorists invaded Israel with the explicit purpose to commit genocide against jews, any attempt to fight back against that is criticized. A huge chunk of the whole world just seems to feel like Israel “deserved it”, and they should just take it lying down.
Sure, but also Israel had already been committing genocide. The have an explicitly Zionist leader. They kill a shit-ton more Palestinians than Hamas kills Israelis. They also get a lot more support from the west. Sure, Hamas are terrorists, but Israel uses fear and violence (textbook terrorism) to suppress and colonize land. Much of that land is internationally recognized as Palestinian. Israel is not a moral state, and you shouldn’t pretend like they are.
When you’re engaged in oppressing a whole population for decades, then you should be surprised when people get desperate enough to lash out in brutal ways. That the other side also commits war crimes does not give you any right to commit even more war crimes.
It’s not about Israel having to take it lying down. It’s about Israel not retaliating against civilians who have already been victims of both Israeli and Hamas oppression their entire lives for actions carried out by a tiny proportion who won a minority of the votes so long ago that the vast majority of the current Gaza population were not even of voting age when the last election were held, and that a majority would like to get rid of (see below).
Had Israel engaged with any kind of humanity, instead of with prominent people calling Palestinians animals and instigating brutal additional oppression, and instead aimed to take on just Hamas and showed they were serious even a lot of people who see Israel as the brutal apartheid state it is would be a lot more sympathetic to their legitimate right to fight back against Hamas.
As it stands, Israel is demonstrating that like Hamas, its government are far-right extremist war criminals who thrives on dehumanizing and victimizing civilians, and whereas Israeli civilians are not legitimate targets, and should have our sympathy, nobody should have any sympathy for their Apartheid government.
To preempt the inevitable attempt to conflate Palestinians with Hamas:
1000 people are going to commit genocide against a country of 7 million? Try to have some sense of the scale of things here.
So because they weren’t successful at wiping out every jew, which was their intention, they get a pass? That’s unrealistic.
It’s not that it wasn’t successful, it’s that it wasn’t within their capability. So getting upset about something that’s impossible in order to justify mass slaughter is an exercise in excuse making.
Oh fuck off there’s no way the force Gaza put out ever had a chance of doing that and Hamas themselves have said they expected to fight the military at the border. At this point the only people saying Israel is at risk of genocide are the Israelis themselves.
Do you think that the Israeli government’s current approach is reasonable and will work?
Their citizens demanded it, any country would if they suffered the same attack. Its hard to say exactly what a reasonable response is. Between doing nothing, and nuking Gaza there is some reasonable, measured response. Either side could argue about what that is, but they can’t just do nothing, and take it lying down which seems to be what one side is suggesting is the only reasonable course of action.
Their citizens demanded it
OK, fine, but do you think the current approach will work? And by “work”, I mean bring about lasting peace.
Then stop gaslighting.
How should they react to Hamas’ desire to exterminate them?
Maybe not by mass murdering innocent civilians?
Defending yourself and annihilating an entire people are two different things.
They told them to evacuate and Hamas told them to stay put which many did.
So what’s your suggestion?
Going in there with the army on the ground? That will probably result in even more casualties.
Hamas is just evil with how they planned their bases around hospitals, churches or civilian buildings because they know that it’s impossible to target them without having civilian casualties. That’s the whole point.
So Israel should just ignore that Hamas specifically targeted schools and civilians for their attack and not do anything? Seriously what’s your suggestion besides staying in your childish black and white thinking of optimal solutions.
Civilian casualties are absolutely horrible but imho those are 100% Hamas fault for using them as meat shields and creating the necessity for a response by what they did to those victims of their attack.
I know Palestine people don’t really have a choice since there were no elections in a long time so they are the biggest victims of this but imho putting the blame on Israel is just making it far too easy.
This is not a play ground. You don’t get to swing your fists wildly and blame any children who fail to get out of your way.
It is on the military to avoid civilian casualties. And a fake evacuation order doesn’t cut it. They know there’s nowhere for people to go without passing the IDF lines but they aren’t allowing that. So get out of here with your fake outrage about human shields. You are attacking into the most densely populated area on earth. Their mere existence does not make them shields.
It is on the military to avoid civilian casualties.
And what would be your solution to that? accept people to flee to Israel and put them in camps temporarily until they can go back? surely that won’t provoke negative reactions…
Letting everyone roam freely also isn’t workint since Hamas has shown that they’d take any chance they get to harm Israeli civilians so they’re for sure not taking that chance.it’s always easy to criticize something and MUCH harder to come up with a better alternative - and I’ve yet to read someone state one other than “don’t attack Gaza” which would basically be like rolling over and letting the terrorists win which surely can’t be in people’s interest…
They are called Refugee Camps for a reason. That IS the alternative. If you want remove people from a combat area then Refugee Camps are the international gold standard.
Ofc I don’t have a solution, it would be ridiculous to claim that I did. But that doesn’t change the fact that genocide is not a solution either. It’s not like anything goes if no one has a perfect idea, and mass murdering civilians is pretty much the last thing on the list. It’s the one thing that should be avoided at all costs imo.
This does sound like the only option you give to Israel is to be demolished. Since you seem to agree no military action can be used against terrorist groups since it will always result in people dieing, the only other option is for Israel to leave. (Where to, btw?)
Israel is not leaving or being demolished, what are you talking about?!
The majority of Palestinians, Hamas and other groups in Palestine are against a two-state-solution. Their goal is to have Israel gone. While the international community can likely pressure Israel into stopping to attack Gaza, how do you suggest they stop the terrorist attacks on Israel from Gaza?
I know, that doesn’t mean Israel is going away. They are the more powerful of the two by a big margin and they have very strong international support, they will be just fine. Imo it is their job to prevent as many attacks as possible, endure the rest and keep working towards a peaceful solution. I know this is hard, but Israel is easily strong enough to do that, and the alternative is infinitely worse.
ofc is should be avoided at all cost - but the way it looks now it’s pretty much impossible to avoid given how Hamas is playing this…
I think your and my definition of “at all costs” is a bit different.
Do you believe Hamas would avoid civil casualties if Israel didn’t do those strikes and let them do whatever they wanted?
I think It’s pretty obvious that Hamas has never been and will never be able to kill nearly as many people as Israel is killing right now.
no answers, only downvotes lol
Users don’t want to openly admit they want Israel to just die and disappear.
Nooo you ruined the circlejerk 😭
Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. Far-right MK Bezalel Smotrich, now the finance minister in the hardline government and leader of the Religious Zionism party, said so himself in 2015.
According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
Maybe you should debate the expert from the article.
Obviously by exterminating all the Palestinians first
/s
/s?
I’m not entirely convinced this is sarcasm.
uh okay
I’m implying this is actually the end goal of Zionists.
yes that was the point of my sarcastic comment
Your sarcasm was so advanced that it flew over my head.
It’s hard to think of all the ways one’s own comments will be read, too, and phrase things to avoid misinterpretation. Makes sarcasm really hard when we’re all internet strangers reading text posts
Kill kill kill!!!
Gazan population doubles in 2 decades: help! There’s a genocide!
What the jews got was the purposeful death of innocent civilians. Just watch jewish numbers in the world before and after WW2. What gazans get is a war. Yes, civilians die in wars, and that’s an awful thing. Israel should’ve done everything to prevent this war, but didn’t. Bibi has a lot to answer.
But comparing the Holocaust to gaza is just absurd. You can take a side in a conflict without baseless accusations, Israel has already a lot to answer to. But purposefully killing civilians? We’ve yet to see that from Israel, only from Hamas…
And there’s also genocide apologists like you
Could you enlighten me on what I said that wasn’t correct? Instead of throwing titles how about actually explaining your case?
Nobody owes you a “debate”. Thats what people like you always want, to waste peoples time dragging them into a pointless “debate” where you had no intention of arguing in good faith from the start. Its why the best way to deal with scum like you is to just tell you to fuck off, block you and then let you cry into the void about people not “debating” you.
Based.
Absolutely, some classic sealioning! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning
No man, no one owes me anything, I just asked if you had anything better to say than just calling names which is just destructive. So yeah, I agree about the blocking part of me not wanting anything to do with someone who can’t even hear opinions who are contrary to his own, and just name calling them.
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And there’s also genocide apologists like you
Said the terrorist apologist
I know is hard for people with your brain power but you can be against the apartheid genocidal state of Israel, and support the jewish inocent people who have died.
You can also be against Hamas disgusting acts of terrorism, and support the Palestinian inocent people who have been suffering for 70 years.
Just make the world a favour and don’t reproduce.
Wow please describe my position to me while claiming I don’t have the “brain power” to hold it. You’re not enlightened.
You’re not enlightened.
Have you ever washed the dishes and for some reason you toch some slimy, wet, disgusting piece of food, and you cringe? That’s how this interaction feels for me, good day turd.
lmao yes, but the cringe of this post has taken its spot
I don’t think he’s calling the last two decades genocide, but he is calling the last two weeks genocide. The language is genocidal, refusing to allow Palestinians a way to escape is murderous, and the limited aid coming from Egypt won’t be enough to keep Palestinians afloat. If kept up, the blockade of necessary resources will kill more people in the coming months than the air strikes ever could.
I agree the past 2 weeks are inhumane against Palestinians, but blaming it entirely on Israel is dishonest given they still have civilians kidnapped and probably tortured (not based on a tin foil hat, based on the bodies of dead Israelis).
I do believe they’ll let help come from Egypt before it gets catastrophic, because they also don’t want a humanitarian disaster to happen. That’ll only move more people towards Hamas, which is of course against their interests.
And about the language - not once have I heard an Israeli official calling the Palestinian people animals - only their leadership (which let’s face it - they are animals). And because Israel is a free state, and part of the free world, they’ll get backlash for saying anything of that nature. I just don’t think we’ll even come to that - since Israel just doesn’t wanna involve itself with Gaza at all besides destroying Hamas.
Egypt closed the border indefinitely. So no, there will be no help coming from Egypt “before it gets catastrophic”. The reason for that is that Israel shelled the border again. Article here
Hamas is the foster child of Netanyahu and his ilk. They have been funding Hamas for a long time because it keeps the Palestinian Authority down. Article here
That’s news from 10 days ago, just search “rafah crossing” and see that aid is being pushed through right now. Because of course it is.
And yeah, the Israeli right wing government is stupid in fostering Hamas, since it suited his needs of having no peace talks with Palestinians. Bibi is corrupt to the bone, and maybe the only good thing from this situation is his demise from power. Maybe that’ll allow actual good policies to pass through.
I didn’t blame Israel for Hamas killing civilians, I blamed them for letting hamas get so powerful that they could execute such a devastating attack.
Israel does not care about pushing civilians towards Hamas, as they have mostly done just that for the last few decades. They refused to support more moderate Palestinians forces, instead causing economic hardship for all Palestinians, while stealing territory from the West Bank where Hamas has less power. If they didn’t want a humanitarian crisis, they wouldn’t have blockaded essential resources. They demanded over a million people evacuate from half of Gaza in 24 hours, something that would be nearly impossible in even wealthy countries with functioning governments. Even if Gaza had a government willing to move those people, the request would still be impossible.
When the government originally said they were “fighting animals,” they did not specify Hamas. In fact, they were telling all Palestinians that they would be cut off from essentials. Bibi and his allies have been trying their hardest to make Israel a less free country, an explicit Jewish theocracy. The idea that the “free world,” would speak up is laughable when fascist parties are serious threats in every liberal democracy. The Republicans in the US have been even more explicitly genocidal against Palestinians than Israel’s government, dehumanizing all Muslims and inspiring hate crimes. It’s nothing new as they have been demanding trans people be banned from public life for the last few years. Most Democrats refuse to speak up enough, as they value their middle eastern ally way too much. The right wing in Israel want to steal Palestinian land and force the people into exile, as they have no sense of irony.
I agree about Israeli goverment being way too right wing, trying to take more Palestinian land. That just sucks, and it’s a worldwide trend of countries becoming less liberal.
And yeah Israel 100% messed up horribly about letting Hamas being so powerful. Bibi has so much to answer to and by his character he won’t and blame it on others.
And about the humanitarian crisis - let’s be real - nobody expected Gazans to clear the northen part in 24 hours - the IDF itself issued more warnings after that initial 24 hour one because of course they did - it’s ridiculous thinking otherwise. It’s been almost a week since then and they still haven’t invaded - plenty of time for evacuation. And blocking of resources is also over with Rafah crossing (about Israel’s support of food/water/electricity - it’s understandable why they don’t wanna spend their money giving them that right now…)
And about Israel not supporting more moderate Palestinian forces, I don’t know about that… The last time Israel supported the PA was the Oslo Accords which is wildly regarded in Israel as a good step for peace, and a very bad move for Israeli security - the second intifada has definitely been more deadly because of it.
But even after all of that - that’s just the current government - and unlike Hamas, they don’t control the whole state. There’s an opposition, there’s a separate military, a separate court… The extremists don’t have all the power. And hopefully after those events Israelis will realize they’re a danger not only to Palestinians, but for Israelis.
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You’re suggesting a brutally oppressive apartheid regime engaged in decades of war crimes and gross crimes against humanity have “tried for forgiveness, compassion, compromise, negotiation”? If so, you’re both delusional and an apartheid apologist.
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Extermination is first stage 9 out of 10 of Stantons 10 stages of genocide. And as the article also points out, extermination is only one approach to genocide, and not required to meet the UN definition.
That you conflate genocide with inherently requires mass murder just demonstrates that you don’t know what genocide is.
Maybe you should actually read and try to understand the article.
I see that genocide is not just murdering innocent, but still there’s a lost nuance in this article that Israel is only addressing the Palestinian leaders (Hamas), not the Palestinian population as a whole.
That’s a very huge distinction, since jews in the Holocaust were just regular citizens in a country, without a murderous leadership. Palestinians are different in that regard - they have a terrorist organization running their territory, and no one but Israel can/will do anything about that. No one is considering how good Gazans could’ve lived if their leaders weren’t terrorists.
And nobody can fight a terrorist organization without civilian casualties. That’s war. Calling it a genocide is in my eyes dishonest to actual genocides where innocent people are being called animals and pillaged and slaughtered. Palestinians are poor people, but there’s definitely not only one aggressor against them.
but still there’s a lost nuance in this article that Israel is only addressing the Palestinian leaders (Hamas), not the Palestinian population as a whole.
Sorry, but that is pure and utter bullshit and shows you trying to justify Israels actions in a way not even Israels own government does.
That’s a very huge distinction, since jews in the Holocaust were just regular citizens in a country, without a murderous leadership. Palestinians are different in that regard - they have a terrorist organization running their territory, and no one but Israel can/will do anything about that. No one is considering how good Gazans could’ve lived if their leaders weren’t terrorists.
If Israel was actually only narrowly targeting Hamas, then that’d be great. Polls shows most people in Gaza would prefer the PA control Gaza too. I’ve posted links and images of those polls several times. But the idea that is all Israel is doing is pure fiction.
And nobody can fight a terrorist organization without civilian casualties.
Nobody is asking for that. People are asking for them to not engage in genocide. People have also been asking them - for many decades - to stop engaging in Apartheid and other brutally war crimes and human rights violations. Hamas only exists in the first place because of Israeli oppression and because Israeli encouraged opposition to Fatah. The violence of Hamas against both Israel and the Palestinian population is also part of Israels responsibility. They brought it on, and they therefore has a special responsibility to not worsen the situation even further through even more harm against civilians who have done nothing wrong and who have all been victims of Israel their whole lives, and a large proportion have also been victims of Hamas their whole lives.
Calling it a genocide is in my eyes dishonest to actual genocides where innocent people are being called animals and pillaged and slaughtered.
Denying the evidence for what Israel is engaging in is vile and dishonest against the Palestinian population.
Palestinians are poor people, but there’s definitely not only one aggressor against them.
That is true. But they’re not helped by apologists for the brutally oppressive Israeli apartheid regime.
trying to justify Israels actions
I mean, their current actions are tbh pretty justified. They have 200 innocent kidnapped civilians. And I have yet to see the Israeli government officially target Palestinian people in their attacks, physical or verbal. All of their aggression is focused on Hamas.
And about Israel not narrowly targeting Hamas - idk what to tell you… I legit don’t hear of any attacks Israel does without there being a Hamas HQ/Storehouse (and even when they’re a legit target, they alert people to evacuate beforehand… What other country in the world does this to their enemies???). Maybe I don’t look hard enough, but from what I can see they legit only target places with arsenal value for Hamas.
People are asking for them to not engage in genocide
And again I stress, I don’t see them targeting Palestinian civilians. Not in their attacks, not in their language. Plenty of Palestinian civilian die, but Israel is less responsible for them than Hamas is - and I see plenty of accusation towards Israel, not towards Hama - which are the main cause for Gazans’ suffering.
stop engaging in Apartheid
Context. I agree about the Apartheid in some some parts (West Bank) but there’s so much nuance there that’s it’s hard to actually define as Apartheid - they’re not actual citizens and they have their own government (PA). Their government doesn’t do much, and they’re under Israeli power - but neither Israelis nor Palestinians consider Palestinians as Israelis - so naming it Apartheid is just not accurate. They’re just a different people.
Denying the evidence for what Israel is engaging in
Nobody denies what they’re doing - I just give them a break considering they’re fighting a war against an organization who benefits from civilian casualties (on both sides…). And no other country in the world is facing that kind of challenge. Maybe consider what they practically could do to keep their security. If they don’t strike hard now - their enemies (pretty much all of their neighbors - another issue they alone face) will all take advantage of and kill them.
not helped by apologists for the brutally oppressive Israeli apartheid regime
They’re also not helped by “woke” distortion of reality which makes the Israeli people only support their right wing government more against the world who very verbosely stick their nose in a conflict thousands of kms away, taking the easy way out of supporting the underdog, no matter what that underdog is actually like.
The violence of Hamas against both Israel and the Palestinian population is also part of Israels responsibility
I actually agree to that. Israel('s government) was comfortable having a terrorist organization being the face of Gazans making them easily hateable. And that led to the horrible deaths of civilians on both sides. The Israeli government have a part in this - smaller than Hamas - but definitely a part which they should answer for. I just don’t see protesting against their response now is helping anything - now they should and they do wipe Hamas out entirely - something they needed to do years ago.
Peace is now impossible between Israel and Gazans directly. Without a third party (heavily) involved, nothing could be done now to correct those relations. Maybe Egypt will step up to it, but they’re also have a bias in this conflict, and even an incentive for it to go on. So I doubt anything real will happen.
I mean, their current actions are tbh pretty justified.
Terrorising the civilian population makes them no better than Hamas, and that you seek to justify their brutality is quite telling.
They have 200 innocent kidnapped civilians. And I have yet to see the Israeli government officially target Palestinian people in their attacks, physical or verbal. All of their aggression is focused on Hamas.
Very few brutal oppressors officially target civilians. The notion that it’s not official policy is the excuse of apologists for brutally oppressive regimes everywhere.
I legit don’t hear of any attacks Israel does without there being a Hamas HQ/Storehouse (and even when they’re a legit target, they alert people to evacuate beforehand…
Of course. Nobody is going to carry out an attack and go “of course we intended to murder innocent people, and knowingly committed war crimes”, so that will always be the story. And given that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on the planet, you can randomly and indiscriminately attack and then retroactively find some excuse. That they keep ending up with dead civilians shows
Context. I agree about the Apartheid in some some parts (West Bank) but there’s so much nuance there that’s it’s hard to actually define as Apartheid - they’re not actual citizens and they have their own government (PA). Their government doesn’t do much, and they’re under Israeli power -
This is only hard to people who haven’t bothered looking, and who are wildly unaware of the characteristics of apartheid.
This was exactly the point of the use of Bantustans in South Africa too: To try to write off responsibility by pretending that they had “independence”, even though South African controlled essential aspects such as borders.
Ever heard of the “states” Transkei? KwaZulu? Ciskei? There were many more. They were “states” created in a way that allowed the South African regime to try to pretend that the suffering and oppression they forced on the population was not their fault, because they were nominally “independent”. Many of the leaderships of these bantustans took on the role willingly - a means for personal power - some took up with some level of protest. E.g. Buthelezi, who led Inkatha and “ruled” KwaZulu refused to accept the pretend independence offered in part because the territory was inherently unviable.
What all of these “countries” had in common was that their bordered were unilaterally dictated by South Africa, and their level of territorial control was unilaterally dictated by South Africa, and so on, just like Israel has dictated the level of territorial control of the West Bank and Gaza and hollowed out whichever pieces they wanted. Many of the bantustans were used as excuses for “resettling” populations in supposed “homelands” and denying claims to other land the same way Palestinians have been systematically pushed into smaller and smaller areas and given some notional control over what is left.
but neither Israelis nor Palestinians consider Palestinians as Israelis - so naming it Apartheid is just not accurate. They’re just a different people.
KwaZulu was a “homeland” for the Zulu people. Ciskei and Transkei were “homelands” for the Xhosa people.
Ovamboland was a “homeland” for the Ovambo people in Namibia, so not even part of South Africa. Damaraland for the Damara people, also in Namibia. Hereroland for the Hereros, also in Namibia.
Like Israel, South Africa also occupied and controlled territories outside their own national boundaries where they, like Israel, unilaterally decided on borders for territories allowed to self govern.
So even if on were to accept your notion that the fact Palestinians and Israelis agree that they are not Israeli, there were still numerous Bantustans in the same situation: Populations that did not consider themselves part of either the same people or the same nation as South Africa, and which were still a core part of the bantustan system.
That you use this as an excuse for dismissing the accusation of Apartheid makes it clear you don’t understand what Apartheid was. Because Apartheid was far more varied than “just” the headline racism and the most in-your-face segregation.
I suggest this article. It’s old, but it’s good particularly because one of the main people mentioned in the article, Arthur Goldreich, was a hero of the Apartheid struggle, a Jewish South African who helped hide Mandela. He was also a fighter in Palmach in the 1940’s, fighting to make Israel a reality. After fleeing South African prison, he settled in Israel again in the 1960’s. I’ll quote a few paragraphs:
As it is, Goldreich sees Israel as closer to the white regime he fought against and modern South Africa as providing the model. Israeli governments, he says, ultimately proved more interested in territory than peace, and along the way Zionism mutated.
Goldreich speaks of the “bantustanism we see through a policy of occupation and separation”, the “abhorrent” racism in Israeli society all the way up to cabinet ministers who advocate the forced removal of Arabs, and “the brutality and inhumanity of what is imposed on the people of the occupied territories of Palestine”.
“Don’t you find it horrendous that this people and this state, which only came into existence because of the defeat of fascism and nazism in Europe, and in the conflict six million Jews paid with their lives for no other reason than that they were Jews, is it not abhorrent that in this place there are people who can say these things and do these things?” he asks.
These are the words of someone who lived decades in South Africa under Apartheid, and then decades in Israel under Apartheid, and who fought against South Africa, and who fought for Israel. This was 2006. Things have gotten far worse since then.
Nobody denies what they’re doing - I just give them a break considering they’re fighting a war against an organization who benefits from civilian casualties (on both sides…).
This is actually worse. If you acknowledge what they’re doing (despite your attempts to whitewash it above), then you’re giving oppressors engaged in gross human rights abuses a break while not giving the oppressed civilian population who are also opposed to Hamas and of whom the vast majority are innocent a break.
They’re also not helped by “woke” distortion of reality which makes the Israeli people only support their right wing government more against the world who very verbosely stick their nose in a conflict thousands of kms away, taking the easy way out of supporting the underdog, no matter what that underdog is actually like.
“Your criticism forced us to align with far-right extremist mass murderers” is never a valid argument. Everyone should stick their noses in when a country keeps electing governments that commits crimes against humanity on a regular basis, just like people eventually did against South African apartheid. If “woke” now means “has basic human decency”, then anyone who isn’t woke is scum.
People used your argument to try to shield the South African apartheid regime against criticism too, and it was just as nasty apologism then as it is now.
taking the easy way out of supporting the underdog, no matter what that underdog is actually like.
Anyone who believes supporting Palestinians has been “the easy way” is either a child or have not paid attention to the political climate for support for Palestinians over a period of many decades. It’s ahistorical and a nasty distortion.
Terrorising the civilian population makes them no better than Hamas
Do you know what terrorism even means when saying that? Israel isn’t trying to incite fear (terror) in Palestinian lives, they do literally everything they can to fight in a region infested with (actual) terrorists (people wanting to incite terror in another group), which is really hard considering they hide among civilians.
Very few brutal oppressors officially target civilians
Well I certainly can’t remember examples of such, and I legit don’t feel like Israel’s statements are racist towards a whole people. I don’t know if it’s apologistic or whatever, it’s just a fact. I don’t try to look for signs of stuff that aren’t there. There are many arab/jewish settlements, and they live peacefully with one another. The only ones Israel is condemning are people who are after the country’s demise. And I don’t see that as oppression, it’s legit.
you can randomly and indiscriminately attack and then retroactively find some excuse
Is that a fact they did or is it out of a tin foil hat? Palestinians ending up with dead civilians is a sad obvious fact of the nature of the land. Does anybody expect Israel to not respond to rockets launched on their civilian territories? And when Hamas hides their rocket launchers in cemeteries and residential buildings, yes, civilian infrastructure will be destroyed. But that’s not on Israel, and asking them to stop their bombings of Hamas infrastructure because it’s hidden between civilian one - is delusional, or is a support of Hamas activity.
About the apartheid part, again, I largely agree. West bank treatment is and should be condemned. But again, you have a bit of a different story here, where Israel is facing an aggressive leadership, which is capable and is actively supporting terrorist activity. Yes, it’s an unfair treatment and should be condemned and shouldn’t be excused. But at the same time Palestinian behavior should be condemned and not excused, as it is blatant terrorism, bombing busses and lynching civilians.
Everyone should stick their noses in when a country keeps electing governments that commit war crimes
How many people protest over Israel’s actions vs Hamas’s actions? How many people protest over north korea? Over
China? I agree right wing governments should be condemned but what Israel is getting is so much more than that. Heck, even Israel’s neighbors are getting less shit for their much more blatant human rights abuses (much more blatant because it’s against their own citizens + with no complex background like Israel).
And what I meant about supporting the Palestinian side being easier was about the public conversation and about the media coverage. Of course it’s easier to take their side since the media is taking the side of the underdog - pretty much always. And in western civilized states, the media has influence on the people.
In general I don’t think Israel is in the clear at all. They funded Hamas’s rule, ignoring their extremist nature for years, only acting now when it’s too late to do anything peacefully. They’re very much a part of why there’s no peace, but they’re not as much a part of why civilians are killed. Murder comes to Israel, not from Israel. I just blame in part the rest of the “united” arab world, for always condemning Israel’s actions yet, a) doing peace treaties with them, allowing them to keep their wrongdoings. And b) not actually doing anything to support their arab brothers in Palestine. Sending empty words of solidarity isn’t helping poor civilians. Keeping all the blame on Israel for an unsolvable situation is just wrong and doesn’t help anyone.
An Israeli historian and Holocaust scholar
Are you an expert? He is.
Nah, I’m just some dude with an opinion on the internet. I think that every country should have a right for proper defense, and proper safety for its citizens. And that includes Palestinians. But to think that the source for that defense should be Israel who are suffering their own casualties is not fair by the world. And Israel tbh is doing the bare minimum in Gaza (up until 2 weeks ago) which is definitely not good, but not as awful as a genocide.
After the events of Saturday tho, I can’t blame them for stopping that bare minimum of protection. They’re at war and can’t enjoy that luxury.
sure give as many weapons as you can to a government and people who are not ashamed and have proven over and over and over again that they can and will attack Israel and its citizens. I think the only solution here is to take them out of the land or make them all Israelis so they wont want to destroy themselves, but there’s not guarantee of that. The problem is very much with the government of the PLO and Hamas and the people should be given a choice to choose and alternatives Israel has never addresed reperations for palesitnians who lost their land during the 3 big wars. Of course, they dont need to do this, but will be a gesture of peace and reconciliation. On the other hand, this is literally what foreign aid is to the palestinians and that is why the receive and look what they have done with it. A people who continue to make stupid decisions and abuse their own people are not capable of leading themselves, literally.
100% agree. And with how right wing the Israel government is right now, there’s no way they’ll address reparations for Palestinians anytime soon (the country already was going right, now after the Hamas attack you can bet more right wing aprties will take more power in Israel).
Israel needs to get themselves together and work towards peace, with the rest of the world’s back as insurance of Palestinians not doing dumb stuff (which meanwhile is the only thing Palestinian leaders did).
Definitely not an expert.
Well, looks like neither are the world leaders, since they go towards my way of looking at things (allowing Israel to defend itself, while not being simultaneously humane and giving food/water/electricity to their enemies).
The fifth stage of grief is acceptance.
The Jewish population also increased in the ghettos before the Nazis decided to clear the Ghettos. Maybe you should go read the UN definition of genocide before saying stupid shit?
increased in the ghettos
Source? That sounds like an interesting read
Either way tho, that wasn’t my main point. My main point is that Israel is fighting a war against Palestinian leaders, not killing civilians needlessly. And that’s a nuance that’s not addressed in this article, or in most pro-palestinian text I read.
Is that why Palestinian and Israeli Arab population numbers keep increasing?
Read the article and find out.
I stopped reading when they uncritically accepted reports from the Gaza Health people. Who, uhh, are Hamas.
An Israeli historian and Holocaust scholar
If you know more than this guy, maybe you should be taking calls from the State Department instead of arguing basic logic on Lemmy. Good on you for educating us simpletons. With your help, maybe some of us can be productive members of society.
If they’re taking Hamas’s word for anything, I’m sorry, but I’m not going to rely on their analysis. Sorry.
Removed by mod
What? Dude if you’re racist that’s up to you. Hamas runs the government of Gaza. Saying Hamas is Hamas is just accurately describing reality.
Well, you’re implying all Gazans are Hamas. Which is bullshit.
Uhh, no, I’m stating that Hamas controls the entire Gazan government, which includes the health ministry. So, trusting the Gaza health ministry is literally the same thing as trusting Hamas.
As they have been for decades now
historian says
Can we please stop using these nonsensical claims? What historian? A Reddit armchair hero? Can you please get an actual known historian with a name?
Having said that, Israel has been committing genocidal acts for decades now. What Hamas did is awful and despicable, but it’s a proverbial bloody nose they dealt to Israel in comparison.
Religious extremism in Israel is to blame for this, IMHO. They claim that their gods says it’s okay that they steal houses, the Israeli government acts as if it doesn’t happen. Palestinians then protest this, get arrested, tortured or shot. Kids throw stones, get shot. Israëli government acts as if their nose bleeds.
Then they hit back hard, and now their nose IS bleeding and everybody is “poor Israelis”
No. I feel for the families that have their loved ones killed and kidnapped, I do, and Hamas must be stopped. However, we can’t simply blame Hamas and completely ignore what Israel is doing right now and more importantly, what it’s been doing for the past 60 years.
It. Has. To. Stop.
I somewhat agree, but, maybe read the article.
Raz Segal (Hebrew: רז סגל) is an Israeli historian residing in the United States who directs the Master of Arts in Holocaust and Genocide Studies program at Stockton University.[1] He has written multiple books about the Holocaust in Carpathian Ruthenia.
**That ** historian.
Well, this jewish, israeli (born, raised, and educated) holocaust professor, with decades of experience and many titles under his belt acquired specifically in the field of genocide and the Holocaust hasn’t seen what the armchair historians on the internet have to say.
Holocaust historians hate this one one trick.
I wonder if Isreal has gas chambers…I’d not be surprised.
