So I thought about this in the shower amd it makes sense to me, like praying and stuff never worked for most people I know, so a direkt link to god gotta be unlikely. That made me conclude that religion is probably fake, no matter if there’s a god or not. Also people speaking to the same god being given a different set of rules sounds stupid, so at least most religions must be fake.
“Give me your entire life and I’ll give you rewards beyond your wildest dreams… that you can only see after you die.”
One of the greatest grifts in all of history.
I can’t think of a better one overall
Lots of good discussion going on here, majority of folks have covered off on the pitfalls and deceitfulness that comes with religion so thought I’d give an alternative perspective.
I think in some ways religion is a very helpful tool. It provides people with guidelines to live a good life - ‘as long as you do these things everything is gonna be alright’. It takes away uncertainty. It gives people purpose. Pretty sure they attribute a lot of humanity’s early adoption of cleanliness and hygiene standards to religion. The whole ‘invisible man in the sky is watching you’ thing does wonders for keeping people accountable behind closed doors.
Whether or not it’s fake is up to the individual. Personally I define religion as a ‘way of living’ (a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion). Do I subscribe to organised religion? No. Do I think that it’s fake for those that do? Definitely not. Can different faiths be praying to the same god/s? Yes, I think it’s possible, we are all connected.
What I’m getting at here is that even if you think it’s fake, it’s important to continue questioning and exploring the spiritual or religious aspects of the human condition and develop your own understanding for yourself.
Religion has typically been used as a tool for controlling the masses but to dismiss it solely as a manipulation tactic is an injustice. There is more there to be uncovered if you are willing to look.
The world needs more faith.
Counterpoint: faith and religion have caused more wars, misery, and death than any other single source in human history. We’ve had literally thousands of years of being led by religious leaders, maybe it’s time to try something different. The world needs LESS faith.
I am in complete agreement with your statement, excepting the final line.
Organised religion leading society’s and their involvement in government is definitely detrimental.
What I aim to bring to light here is that religion, belief and faith in something greater than oneself is (in my belief) healthy for humanity when it is driven by personnel introspection.
I feel that all too often we have very intelligent people who completely ignore the entire prospect or field of spirituality due to the negative light it is cast in.
I’m also happy for people to ignore it but speaking from my own experience, I never thought to investigate this side of the human condition as I had wrapped all notions of spirituality up with the atrocities and lack of logic or reasoning of organised religion. Religion was bad and stupid and I wanted nothing to do with it. But I’ve since grown and adapted my world views & hope to share my experiences from an empathic viewpoint to maybe assist others who can relate.
When I say we need more faith, I don’t really mean faith in any particular god, entity, alien or higher power. I mean more so that faith in oneself, faith in the connected nature of all things and faith in the universe, this form of faith is a very empowering source of energy that we as a collective can draw upon.
It’s open to interpretation and appreciate your response.
It sounds like you are replacing the words faith with confidence or certainty. You can be confident in yourself but you can’t have faith in yourself because faith necessitates not having knowledge otherwise it would be knowledge.
I can’t really say much more about your idea of faith since most of what you said is the standard vague wishy washy stuff that doesn’t tell me anything exact
It provides people with guidelines to live a good life - ‘as long as you do these things everything is gonna be alright’.
which is a fucking lie. the most decent people I’ve known have been plagued by disease and preyed upon by the strong and greedy. do these things and MAYBE, if you’re really fucking lucky, you won’t die an excruciatingly painful death and/or have your loved ones murdered and your life’s work stolen.
those seem like the odds everyone gets, regardless of faith.
The world needs more faith.
no, the world needs justice, balance. waiting for faith to solve things isn’t going to help anyone.
They are lies to some and to others they are promises.
I don’t disagree that organised religion can and is very manipulative.
Sorry, I wasn’t very clear - was less about whether or not the guidelines are real or have an impact (which is arguable either way) but more so that people want to be reassured that they are ‘doing the right thing’.
And my reason for highlighting this is to provide an understanding for the people that do follow religion - that it’s a very natural human response to look for certainty or predictability and for some people religion provides that by providing a structure for them to build their moral compass and world views around.
Again, whether or not that’s a good or bad thing is up to the individual.
You mention justice and balance and I agree that balance is definitely required. Justice is a more complex notion, one which generally involves consequences or punishment.
I’m unsure of justice being useful, as long as we are divided and pointing fingers we will never truly meet our potential as a species. We can do amazing things when we work together.
When I say faith I am not implying that someone or something is going to intervene and save the day. I’m definitely not advocating inaction. But as I mentioned in another reply, faith in oneself and the people around them to make the right decisions and hold themselves accountable is a good starting point. Faith that this existence is just a tiny part of a much greater existence and faith that what you do matters regardless of how inconsequential it may seem.
You mention justice and balance and I agree that balance is definitely required. Justice is a more complex notion, one which generally involves consequences or punishment.
RAPISTS NEED TO FACE JUSTICE. Instead faith orgs shuffle the rapists around and defend them.
If we simply started there, the world would be a much better place.
I think the imaginary friend(s) problem is going to destroy our species if we can’t outgrow it pretty fucking quickly.
also see: palestine
I think I understand your anger.
It would be a start, you’re right.
I think that division will destroy us much faster than anything else.
As long as we’re blaming, hating, raping, murdering, deceiving and competing with each other we will destroy ourselves.
And maybe that is what’s best for the universe.
A hateful species that can’t co-operate and recognise its diversities as its strengths should not be able to leave its planet.
It will become its own Great Filter.
You are right though, there does need to be consequences and inaction is just as bad as condoning.
Hating the people that believe in something is no better than the people that are hating each other for believing in different things.
It will become its own Great Filter.
yeah, I can’t see us passing the future hurdles and it makes me exceptionally depressed. we can’t get coal rollers and vroom vroom types to stop pouring hydrocarbon byproducts into the atmosphere, how are we going to get the entire world to pull back.
we have one biosphere. once chance. and it’s already so very very very fucked. AMOC collapse, Microplastics in EVERYTHING including all testicles measured - PFAS everywhere - ice sheets collapsing - ocean temps off the charts - mexico, us south, india, pakistan COOKING… it’s all gonna get worse and still the assholes are talking about drilling more and driving their shitmobiles.
Difference is nobody hates the people that are christians at least incredibly uncommon they hate religion for all the harm its done to families and everyone. Which is why i am antitheist.
I mean your wishy washy guide to life stuff sounds cool and all. But it is just flat out wrong no questions. People have used faith to justify genocide racism sexism slavery and more.
Faith can lead to any conclusion at all thats why faith is a problem I can believe in white supremacy based on faith and I can believe in loving everyone based on faith but because you can’t verify faith both these stances are completely equal.
Ironically jesus the most well known religious figure world wide told people specifically not to wash their hands in Matthew 15.
You can believe anything from faith which is why its used for atrocities and why the world doesn’t need more faith
The world needs more faith.
Upvoted just on this and you’re right. I have faith but fuck religion. Religion is man made and flawed AF. I have a deep relationship with “God” and talk to them regularly. People need to drop their inhibitions and expand their minds.
Issue is you can believe anything from faith and thats why atrocities happen because x god told them too. Or X priest says this thats how cults exist a group of people believe crazy things with no evidence whatsoever. Which is exactly what faith is belief without evidence.
There will always be that which we can’t explain. It doesn’t matter how advanced we get. We will never know what is upstream from the most recent discovery. Evidence will never exist for everything and I personally am at peace with that. The problem as I see it is you are attributing “god” to that gap when it’s far more nebulous than that.
Yeah their is always things that we won’t know so why make up answers rather then just admitting to not knowing something that is basic humility.
Also i didn’t attribute god to that directly i attributed faith to that which is its only purpose which is why i think its entirely bad. You can replace god with alien overlord and it works the same way. Or even a vision from the future.
The question back is what harm is it to you that I attribute the creation of the universe to a giant spaghetti Monster? What harm is it to you that I attribute the vast unknowns of the ocean to Cthulhu?
The flaws you mention come from organization which I am very clearly distancing from. Faith can exist without religion and organization. Religion cannot exist without faith.
The sooner we decouple these two things the quicker we can move forward as a species IMHO
Sure until you start attributing other things to it and basing your life voting and other things on it. Plus i think its inherently harmful to believe things without reason since i think their is inherent value in only believing what we have reason to believe is true. Plus this kinda thinking is what keeps us in the stone age if we assume we know the answer we don’t progress but then we discovered stuff like lightning wasn’t from roman gods and life improved from that knowledge.
I’m glad to hear that, keep that communication going! I feel the same and it makes me smile knowing that there are similar minded people out there. Thanks for the kind words stranger, lead by example.
Religion is a way to avoid accountability.
It is the ultimate giving up of your personal free will… and they make it a fucking SELLING POINT.
Like door to door lobotomy salesmen.
That made me conclude that religion is probably fake, no matter if there’s a god or not.
That’s not it. All religions are real - regardless of whether the things any given religion worships is real or not.
Religion is as real as money, borders and race.
Your just kinda messing around with words when people think religion and talk about it like this they are referring to the beliefs like a god making the world. While yes thats also religion thats not when people mean in this context since everyone knows things like churches exist
Religion has always been nothing more than a way to control people.
“I talked to God and he said that if you don’t listen to the rules that I wrote in this book then he’s going to torture you forever”Abrahamic moment
Have you ever played a game of telephone? Even if god did speak to people why would anyone ever trust a human messenger that is so prone to misunderstanding? Unless a god arranged the stars themselves in a way that communicates a presence there’s no reason to trust human prophets about their distorted views of the divine filtered through a meager tube of experience.
I always say this. Any “real god” that created everything and gave their word to humans to pass on will be distorted by the end of the day.
Humans are greedy and selfish and they will change the word to be proven right. That is what I have faith in. The human ability to fuck up shit for selfish reasons.
As it turns out, you can believe whatever you want. Religion isn’t something you can really solve with logic. It is called faith for a reason.
The fact that you can’t reasonably and logically come to the conclusion that God exists, pretty much tells you all you need to know about God and religion.
That’s not how faith works though
I’m 14 and this is deep.
Hey, don’t announce your vulnerable age to a bunch of old crusty strangers on the Internet
It doesn’t matter what happens to me—as I’ve learned in this post, there is no god.
If there’s no god, then what happens to you is more important, not less.
I dropped my /s somewhere.
Praying works: “Thank God!111!”
Praying doesn’t work: “God works in mysterious ways… 🤷♀️”
Like sure if you need that as a way to cope with a depressing reality. But that is the main function of religion: to keep folks complacent, governable and prevent systemic change
(dw am not some kind of “religion bad!! no, I never interacted with organized spirituality, why do you ask?”-person. That’s just what growing up with
real /jOrthodox Christianity and two hours of liturgy per week does to a critically inclined mf lol)-like praying and stuff never worked for most people I know,-
Like they wished for a car or a pony and didn’t get it?
What about praying to not die of cancer or for jobs and/or places to live? Or praying for a child to live, or for no Genocide etc. Lots of nonselfish prayers out there.
Then planes would never crash, there would be no crime, and all guns would shoot jello. Who wants to live like that?
Lots of people. You enjoy people dying for no fault of their own? I don’t need planes crashing. I don’t have a personal need of guns, and if there were no unjust threats, why is a gun necessary? As for crime, crime is really a construct based on a created morality, so that’s up in the air.
My examples were about innocent people suffering, and it feels like your response is “Who would want to live in a world where innocent people don’t suffer?” I almost think you’re joking, because that’s a seriously messed up thing to admit about yourself, much less assume everyone else agrees.
My point was that this wouldn’t be a real life. It would be like a controlled fantasy Barbie dream house life and even she gets chewed up by the dog sometimes. There is no positive without negative. There is no advancement without adversity. If everyone wins the lottery, the lottery means nothing. Life is the struggle.
That’s just your myopic opinion. Plenty of people live fulfilling lives without random chance of an early death being their meaning of living. Perhaps you’re misunderstanding my original comment. I didn’t say immortality (though several religions do promise that as an afterlife), nor did I say unlimited wishes. I mostly said stuff like fatal diseases, daily needs, and unfair deaths like genocides, etc. You added in plane crashes, which also isn’t necessary for a fulfilling life.
It sounds a bit like you’re a zero sum person, like not everyone in the world can have basic needs. As a reminder, we’re discussing this under the assumption there is a loving omnipotent we can pray to. If the world is so messed up that people can’t even expect to not die horribly of stuff that just happens to them outside their own choices, or where not everyone had an equal opportunity to just live a simple life and have their needs met, then that suggests that an omnipotent God decided to make life that way, and such a being is not deserving of my worship, and hasn’t proved their existence.
How can anything judge your behavior if there is interference or proof? You can only be responsible for your morality if there is true free will. If you could pray away anything bad, then it would be unfair to be judged for reward in an afterlife
Not dying of cancer is selfish. It mainly benefits yourself
If you think dying only affects yourself, then that’s already selfish, or sad. You have no family or friends who would mourn you? What if you’re the breadwinner, or you have young children? A person dying doesn’t affect only themselves.
mainly. Yes the biggest impact is to myself. Sure my kids will be impacted but not as much
Sure, for you. If a young single parent who is the only one who can support their child dies, at best they’re hoping for nontraumatic foster care, but in many places, including first world countries, it can mean far worse for them. Still, I’ll cede personal cancer for the sake of the overall point. That was hardly the worst issue in my comment.
You don’t understand, it is God’s will if you get it, if you don’t it’s his plan for you…
It’s a win win for him. And of course all those telling you what to do in his name :p
no, I mean like they tried to talk to god
How did they know it didn’t work? I don’t really know how those things work, but I’m pretty sure that one is mostly internal.
Lol 💯
Thank you r/atheism
Goddamn, OP. I hope you were ready for walls of text splaying out people’s entire opinions about everything on this topic.
Why do you think they posted it?
The more you think about it all, the less sense it makes. Congrats on discovering the tiny seed of free-will we all have inside us.
I agree, now how do I get my mom to quit telling me I’m going to hell?
Well that’s where all the sinners go right? And gambling and hooking are a sin… Hell has blackjack and hookers. Sounds like it could be a fun place.
You can point out the fact her depiction of a divine parent fails the Solomon test.
In the classic Solomon story, he tests two different claimants both saying they are the parent of a child.
The false parent was the one that only cared about being recognized as the parent and was willing to see the child harmed and killed to fulfill that desire.
The true parent was the one that wanted the child to continue to live as their complete unadulterated self, even if that meant the child never even knew they existed, let alone get they were the parent.
While it should be easy to understand why a church collecting your money promotes a divine parent who demands recognition and is willing to see its supposed children harmed without collecting its dues, it doesn’t seem all that wise to believe such a parent represents a true parent and not a false one if we use Solomon’s wisdom as a guiding principle.
She’s almost 70 now… I don’t think there’s anything I can say that will change her mind lol
Religion can still be legit IF
- the goal is moral good - most modern religions have a similar moral basis, as do agnostics and atheists
- non-interference - in this life, it’s all up to you
- nobody can speak for whatever supreme being and it has better things to do than speak to us
- outside of that moral foundation, it’s all more of a tool than a goal. Rituals and daily rules help you stay on the path but aren’t goals in themselves. For example if you adhere to your variation of communal prayer, you are spending time uplifting your thoughts to the moral foundation, and developing a harmony with your community. It’s a tool, a practice, to develop better habits toward your goal
Compare it to diet plans. There are many variations where the goal is to eat fewer calories but with rituals to help develop better habits and learn portion control. They are all legit approaches and you can reach your goal of a new life with whichever variation works best for you
