https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/2135509
this is practically a child’s view of the world. good guy vs bad guy. Russia = bad, NATO = good. plus, someone should tell her she has it completely backwards: ending russia is kinda natos entire thing
If you’re anti soviet union then you’re pro nazi germany
ending the soviet union is kinda the nazis thing
initiating liberal self destruct button
Sorry I missed the part where NATO was an authoritarian regime that genocided people en masse.
Also hasn’t Russia repeatedly threatened countries to not join NATO? https://www.cnbc.com/2022/05/12/russia-threatens-retaliatory-steps-if-finland-joins-nato.html
I get that NATO is a primary threat towards Russia because, y’know, they’re currently attempting genocide against Ukrainians, but to compare NATO to Nazi Germany is a little disingenuous don’t you think?
to compare NATO to Nazi Germany is a little disingenuous don’t you think?
Hmm…
HMMMMMMM…
NATO gave informal promises to Gorbachev to not expand eastward (Gorbachev was stupid to believe these promises and not get them in writing as formal, legally-binding promises)
HMMMMMMMMMM?!?!?!?!
???
!!!
Sorry I missed the part where NATO was an authoritarian regime that genocided people en masse.
For the first 40 years of NATO’s existence it sought to undermine democracy and reinforce the states of NATO aligned countries in Europe through terrorism and assassination.
They then rather genocidally carpet bombed Yugoslavia killing and wounding thousands of civilians ( many of whom were from Kosovo the people they purportedly wanted to help), 3 foreign diplomats by bombing a foreign embassy not in anyway involved in a conflict and completely destroying the infrastructure of Serbia.
They then genocidally invaded Afghanistan where they destabilized the country, toppled the government and then put pedophile psychos in charge because they were the ones willing to work with us, killed nearly 100,000 civilians, and then ended up putting the original government back in charge 20 years later.
Finally they genocidally took the most prosperous country in Africa, a country with universal college, healthcare, jobs programs, and housing, a desert country that had a 200 year supply of water and bombed the fuck out of it, destroying the water supply, plundering the gold, supporting the precursors to ISIS, and turned the country into a place with fucking slave auctions.
But yeah NATO isn’t genocidal, they just topple governments and bomb/terrorize civilians.
Don’t forget that they dumped ~15 tonnes of depleted uranium in Serbia. A year later European researchers found DU in all three nearby seas. In case somebody didn’t know, Serbia is a landlocked country.
They’ve recently admitted that DU does in fact cause heavy metal poisoning, birth defects, and increases the number of stillborns and miscarriages. That shit enters the waterways, gets absorbed by plants, after that it spreads throughout the entire food network, where it stays and remains a problem for centuries.
Now let’s remember that they dropped thousands of tonnes of it in Iraq.
to compare NATO to Nazi Germany is a little disingenuous don’t you think?
No, it’s about right. I mean, the US is essentially Nazi Germany except successful. They even directly inspired Nazi Germany’s policies.
Also NATO was made up of literal Nazis from the jump, Adolf Heusinger was the fucking chairman of NATO like 15 years after being one of the heads of the Nazi army
Sorry I missed the part where NATO was an authoritarian regime that genocided people en masse.
clearly
Those Libyans chose to be slaves/s
It’s just the free market at work, you wouldn’t understand you commie.
Sorry I missed the part where NATO was an authoritarian regime that genocided people en masse.
Where the fuck have you been the past decades you absolute buffoon
Libyans, Syrians and Eastern Europeans don’t count as people apparently. (Unless Russia is the one doing the killing of course).
The countries in NATO have been engaged as aggressors in almost all wars in the 21st century.
I mean for sure, but also that’s not addressing the other points in my comment. Russia is clearly the aggressor in this case.
I’m not sure why people are whole-hog against NATO when there’s a more imminent threat against world peace pounding on the door of its neighbors. Y’know, the same one that was found to have directly affected the election of the US. The same one that’s also stomping human rights into the ground (okay the US is also doing this to its own people for this one, you got me).
Maybe once Putin keels over we can dissolve NATO.
You’re looking at this from an emotional standpoint, not geopolitical.
NATO’s existence is why Russia js aggressive. Think on it geopolitically, not emotionally:
You’re the leader of a country. The vast majority of your western border - the half of the country most inhabited by your population - is surrounded by hostile nations. The hostilities date back a few decades to the Cold War but that ended when the previous political system of the country dissolved. You spent the first decade or so of the new political system trying to make friends with these nations, but they keep refusing, all the while portraying you in all their media as the bad guys. Any move you make on the geopolitical scale for your own nation’s sake is tarred, while similar actions by the other countries are praised. No matter what you do, you cannot please these other countries, and they continue to threaten to put military bases and nuclear weapons on your border, eventually sealing your entire western border away behind hostilities.
What the fuck is one expected to do in this situation, and if this shit was happening to the US or anywhere in Europe, you know full well they wouldn’t take it lying down. Why is there an expectation that Russia does, when the world wouldn’t?
Maybe I’m drinking stupid juice, but I think that people hating Russia isn’t really a valid reason for them to invade Ukraine. I know that’s not specifically what you’re saying, but in essence that’s the line of reasoning that I’ve heard throughout this thread.
That said, Russia can’t be painted as “innocent” like so many posters here are stating. They routinely violate human rights. See:
Russian censorship of, among many other things, the internet: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Russia
Russia’s anti-lgbt policies: https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/30/europe/russia-upper-parliament-lgbt-propaganda-law-intl/index.html
Russia’s anti-protest laws: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly_in_Russia
Russia’s general laundry list of human rights violations: https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/europe-and-central-asia/russia/report-russia/
I’m not saying the US is much better, although it is marginally, but claiming that Russia is just “scared and defending itself” doesn’t really track. It’s an authoritarian regime.
If I’m misunderstanding this, somehow, please let me know.
Yes boss, you have catastrophically misunderstood the point.
The point isn’t that people were mean tk Russia and therefore they’re allowed little a invasion as a treat. The point is that they’ve been encircled by hostile nations since the 1990s despite all attempts at overture to them, and that the encirclement continues to get worse. NATO was formed explicitly to take on Russia, and the point of this thought experiment is to try and see this not from an emotional point of view (aka Russia bad) but from a geopolitical point of view of a nation’s leader.
Go back and read my post again. If you were the leader of Russia, knowing that decades of attempted détente didn’t work and that the organization who’s express goal is to break your country apart, and that that organization is doing its best to place troops and nuclear armaments on every inch of your border, would you accept that, or would you perhaps try and prevent that?
We know what happened when the shoe was on the other foot. The US placed nuclear missiles a thousand miles from Moscow on the Black Sea. When the USSR understandably got annoyed and placed nukes in Cuba, the US was seconds away from ending the entire world despite the Soviets repeatedly saying the nukes were defensive response to the Black Sea nukes.
So if we know that the US won’t accept hostile nations arming up on their border, why do we expect others to just kowtow to that?
Passing laws against use of the Russian language and bombing a linguistic minority is just “not liking someone” don’t ya know?
Just to reiterate if the other post is not clear upon first reading, I could not imagine missing the points all over this thread more than the way you did in this comment. I would re-read it many more times. It’s a huge disagreement at basic ways of understanding geopolitics that the gap is either unbridgeable between you and these thoughts or it will seem like a mindfuck when you get what’s being said
I found this to be a good video on the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4 also no one here is defending Russia when it comes to their human rights abuses
Russia is clearly the aggressor in this case.
Why did Ukraine break two seperate ceasefires with the seperatist regions? If they didn’t this wouldn’t be a problem.
I’m not sure why people are whole-hog against NATO when there’s a more imminent threat against world peace pounding on the door of its neighbors.
Because you’re wrong and NATO is the much larger threat, demonstrated through their whole bloody history.
Y’know, the same one that was found to have directly affected the election of the US.
US allies also spend similar amounts or greater on advertisements around the US election. Russiagate was kind of just xenophobia applied to something everyone has been doing.
Maybe once Putin keels over we can dissolve NATO.
Oh, okay, you’re operating on great man theory and not material analysis. This makes your content make sense.
"The official Twitter account of the Donetsk rebels said in the early hours of Sunday that its forces were “taking Mariupol”, but later accused Ukraine of breaking the ceasefire. Fighters from the Azov battalion, who are defending the town, said their positions had come under Grad rocket fire.
Earlier on Saturday the truce had appeared to be holding, with only minor violations reported, as hopes mounted that the deal struck in Minsk on Friday could bring an end to the violence that has left more than 2,000 dead in recent months.
Both sides accused the other of violating the ceasefire, but there did not appear to be any serious exchanges of fire and no casualties were reported."
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/06/eastern-ukraine-ceasefire-russia
" The war began in April 2014 when armed Russian-backed separatists seized government buildings and the Ukrainian military launched an operation against them. It continued until it was subsumed by the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February 2022."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbas_(2014–2022)
At least be correct about what you’re citing. Russian backed separatists claim to be “taking Mariupol” and then backtrack with "oh no! We didn’t break the ceasefire! I promise! ".
Love using twitter as Casus Belli and waving the bloody shirt of literal Nazis. Also the Guardian being your basis for these events is so fucking telling
Please enlighten me as to how an official account for a separatist group declaring they’re attacking is not cause for retaliation.
Russia is literally a fascist government.
Unsourced guardian article and Wikipedia lmao
The person I’m replying to did not even attempt to cite anything, but you’re gonna try and discredit my sources. Okay lol
Russia is clearly the aggressor in this case.
The war that started in 2014 where Ukraine broke two ceasefires with the separatist regions, and has been doing ethnic cleansing against ethnic Russians on the Russian border, that Russia didn’t join until 2022?
Y’know, the same one that was found to have directly affected the election of the US
lol
How do you libs still believe in Russiagate?
Mostly based on the fact that Russian disinformation campaigns were found to have a widespread effect on the election and people’s voting decisions. There’s nothing to “believe” in, it’s just a fact that it happened.
Russian disinformation campaigns were found to have a widespread effect on the election and people’s voting decisions
lmfao America is just full of reactionaries and racists who liked the idea of voting for a billionaire, building a wall, and killing immigrants. They didn’t need to be brainwashed by Putin into voting for Trump.
This is not correct and I’ve posted a link to the Nature Communications article elsewhere - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-022-35576-9
Didn’t you hear? Nature is funded by Russians.
Americans could never vote for a pos like Trump its the Russians fault
no it isn’t
100,000 dollars in Facebook ads counts as “widespread effect on the election” to you? Are you being serious?
the same one that was found to have directly affected the election of the US
Exposure to the Russian Internet Research Agency foreign influence campaign on Twitter in the 2016 US election and its relationship to attitudes and voting behavior
We demonstrate, first, that exposure to Russian disinformation accounts was heavily concentrated: only 1% of users accounted for 70% of exposures. Second, exposure was concentrated among users who strongly identified as Republicans. Third, exposure to the Russian influence campaign was eclipsed by content from domestic news media and politicians. Finally, we find no evidence of a meaningful relationship between exposure to the Russian foreign influence campaign and changes in attitudes, polarization, or voting behavior.
Do you think politics is just good guys and bad guys?
With the outbreak of the Second World War, the German Army High Command (the OKH) assumed its wartime organisation. Heusinger accompanied the field staff and assisted in the planning of operations for the invasions of Poland, Denmark, Norway, and France and the Low Countries.
Heusinger temporarily assumed his office as Chief of the General Staff of the Army. In this capacity, he attended the meeting at Hitler’s Wolf’s Lair on 20 July 1944, and he was standing next to Hitler when the bomb exploded.
Heusinger made available all information that he had on the conspirators who had plotted against the Führer. He reaffirmed that he had not participated in the assassination plot since he still felt an obligation to fulfil his duty as a soldier of the German Reich
Heusinger was later appointed head of the West German military from 1957 to 1961 as well as Chairman of the NATO Military Committee from 1961 to 1964.
I wonder how Libyans feel about this:
NATO gave informal promises to Gorbachev to not expand eastward (Gorbachev was stupid to believe these promises and not get them in writing as formal, legally-binding promises)
The Soviet Union tried to join NATO in 1954 but wasn’t allowed
Meanwhile NATO kept expanding
and including “former” nazis in its ranks
Gorbachev was stupid to believe these promises and not get them in writing as formal, legally-binding promises
If he had them as formal promises it wouldn’t matter. You can just break international agreements what are they gonna do call a cop
Good point. I made that point less about the actual prevention of NATO expansion, which, yes, wasn’t gonna happen either way, and more about NATO today taking advantage of Gorbachev’s stupidity and thus having plausible deniability that claims were ever made in the first place, since none of those promises were formal, legally binding, and documented outside of recently-declassified British archives.
Russia literally requested, many times, to join NATO. Wrong way around - NATO’s whole purpose is to see a country of people reduced to rubble (and also any other countries it feels like along the way).
deleted by creator
I went to go look this up only to discover that Libya wasnt mentioned, but decided to still post it because I’m sure they feel the same about Libya, that we were “Freeing them from Gaddafi” probably.
TIL Ireland is a puppet of Russia.
Its funny the ROI didn’t recognize the USSR till 1973, meanwhile a year earlier Andropov was putting forth a plan called “Plan for the Operation of a Shipment of Weapons to the Irish Friends”
Essential Hexbear theory for those who haven’t seen it
The entire purpose of NATO was to destroy the USSR. But the USSR does not exist anymore. So now, its only purpose is to keep the military-industrial complex going. American corporations are 100% willing to immiserate the people of Eastern Europe and even Germany (Nordstream) to keep their weapons sales up. Hey, we abandoned Iraq and Afghanistan, and Taiwan is too risky - gotta use those weapons somewhere.
The goal is to “Latin Americanise” Eastern Europe and let them join the EU on unequal terms. Ask Greece how that goes when the EU has a financial crisis.
You’re either with us, or you’re with the terrorists
Given how quickly libs rehabilitated Bush Jr it’s unsurprising they agree wholeheartedly with his worldview. As always they just had a problem with the Bush’s aesthetic
But he gave Michelle candy and paints good!
in the year 885, shortly after founding Kievan Rus, Oleg the Wise proclaimed, “ending nato is kinda our whole thing”
Actually it’s Kyivan Ukr
critical support for oleg the wise in his struggle against the genocidal amerikkkan empire
Yeltsin and Putin both wanted to join NATO:
Even Stalin tried a little to join NATO
Wasn’t there an informal deal struck between Gorbachev and (I think) Clinton that Russia would be allowed to join NATO if the Soviet Union broke up? Or am I misremembering that
There was an informal deal around NATO not expanding to around Russia, which is what mearshimer and
have both talked about before.I think Russia tried to join NATO more to prove it was anti-russia
keep in mind that this was before the warsaw pact was even a thing, but the US was meanwhile injecting cash, weapons etc. into west germany less than 10 years after the holocaust, and allowing “former” nazis like Adolf Heusinger into key positions within NATO command structure. The USSR tried to join NATO To get some say in these proceedings but were rejected? Why? Not
democraticcapitalist enough.Molotov’s collective security proposal was rejected by western representatives on two grounds. Firstly, because the United States was excluded from the proposed treaty and relegated, together with Communist China, to observer status.
This is hilarious. I love it.
Vyacheslav stay winning
I think the RF also tried but was likewise rejected
Another (rare) Kruschev W
How can anyone be pro NATO? It’s part of the imperial core/triad’s powers monopoly on military force and intervention, that oppresses left wing or even general anti colonial movements globally, including within their own countries. There are plenty of people in the global south that are anti NATO and not even left wing! Imagine being to the right of Imran Khan on the issue of NATO and global monopolies of power!
If you are not against the imperial core/triad practicing a form of collective imperialism and neocolonialism by the use of organisations like NATO, the World Bank, IMF and the WTO, how can you even be on the left? Is the left not internationalist?
If you do not oppose the “monopoly of five advantages” the imperial core/the west aims to have in weapons of mass destruction, mass communication systems, financial and banking services, technology and access to natural resources through imperial rents, how can you even have hope for a better world?
deleted by creator
Being from the “backyard” of the USA, I can say that many many people back home are much more aware of the Empire’s doings in general.
That doesn’t mean that it made all of them leftists. There are a lot of liberals and fascists as well. But they kinda openly accept and praise the Empire.
People in the core live in this weird fantasy land where reality is entirely fabricated by myths forged by propaganda.
To the point where a major “experience” many more political people have is “waking up to the truth”.
Learning shit we used to learn in school for the first time in their lives lmao
Then either becoming communists or nazis.
If you’re pro-piss then you’re anti-shit. Makes perfect sense.
ACTCHEWALLLLY its “if you’re anti-shit then you’re pro-piss.”
Fuck em, I say
Nah, they don’t deserve a good time from us.
All cats have fur, therefore all animals that have fur are cats.
I remember back in 2003, when liberals were able to call Bush out on his “with us or against us” shit. I swear something badly broke liberals (more than usual) in the last decade.
they are being scratched
I mean, yeah, but it seems like liberals have been really, really unhinged since 2016.
for sure. blue maga is too real
The establishment neocons and blue dog D’s started being as loudly anti-Trump as possible, which grew the Democrat’s tent. When your hammer is anti-Trump, anything Trump agrees with is a nail.
Looking from outside the US it was very clearly Trump. I’m sure there are other factors but it seems to be the major one.
I don’t know about that. Trump accelerated it, but it was clearly present in the 2016 Democratic primaries, when no one was taking Trump seriously (and the Clinton campaign was promoting him).
Oh sure, I didn’t mean to say that trump was the main catalyst or the first one, just that it was the strongest (that accelerated it, like you said). But yeah my previous comment wasn’t clear.
deleted by creator
deleted by creator
I suppose it’s possible to be anti USSR and anti nazi if they’re against the post Stalin revisionist USSR, but I doubt any of the 196 folk are Maoists.
