• irmoz
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    16
    ·
    7 months ago

    Anarchy is order. Rules and comon understandings are kinda central to anarchist theory. Anarchy is a common understanding.

    • Gabu@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      ·
      7 months ago

      It’s also impossible. All you need to overthrow the whole system is a small group of dissidents.

        • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          edit-2
          7 months ago

          For example by positioning themselves along a river and demanding payment from anyone who draws water.

          Or by crafting weapons and demand payment from anyone who doesn’t pay.

          Or seek control through other threats, like poisoning food.

          Really, the possibilities are endless…

          • Prunebutt@feddit.de
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            6
            ·
            edit-2
            7 months ago

            An anarchist society doesn’t mean that the people of that society can’t defend themselves in nonviolent and violent ways.

            Furthermore: why would those “dissidents” even start such behavior?

            Edit (addendum): Seriously: Do you really think that over 150 years of anarchist theory didn’t think of those scenarios and how to prevent them?

            • umbrella@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              3
              ·
              edit-2
              7 months ago

              plenty of bad actors doing evil suff today for a big variety of reasons. i think its safe to assume they will be there, even if they are not so numerous?

              whats the theory on how to deal with this stuff?

              • Prunebutt@feddit.de
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                3
                ·
                7 months ago

                Without private property, there isn’t much ingentive to be malicious in the first place.

                And as I’ve said: a community can defend itself without the need of command and control hierarchy.

                Example solutions for the examples given above:

                Since these assholes live in a community, diplomacy to sanction those people until they cut that shit out. But he concept of payment isn’t really a thing in a “fully anarchist” society, since those would for example run on gift economies, rendering the concept of payment a bit useless.

                Crafting weapons example: Same thing. But if diplomacy doesn’t work, the weapons would have to be taken by force (i.e. by a voluntary, democratically controlled militia).

                The food stuff: I’m again asking “why?”. But in general: let’s say that people can’t stop the “evil” people from being a dick by sanctions or force: People just move away. That’s how humanity did it back in hunter-gatherer times. I think it was this video which explained it quite well (but I might confuse it with another one)

                • umbrella@lemmy.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  7 months ago

                  how is such a thing like the aforementioned militias be organized?

                  assuming my country turns anarchist, how will we defend against imperialist nations? we cant just move a country over because someone else wanted what was in there.

                  • Prunebutt@feddit.de
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    7 months ago

                    You do realize that you can’t seriosly expect an answer to such a broad question in a lemmy post, when whole books have been written about that topic and there is all but consesus on the specifics of the implementation, right?

                    First, the whole system is doomed to fail because a small group of “dissidents” could topple it, now The small group of dissidents becomes a whole imperialist nation. I think that’s what you call “moving the goal posts”. I will disengage if you keep showing not one gram of good will.

                    The militias are organized in a decentralized manner and will be accountable to the community (not a small group of superiors).

                    assuming my country turns anarchist

                    That’s a cathegorical error right there. Don’t knoweif you noticed it.

                    how will we defend against imperialist nations?

                    Again: quite a broad question. Allow me to point you to an essay with a proposal, if you’re so inclined.

                    we cant just move a country over because someone else wanted what was in there.

                    That strategy is one of the strategies to be employed against small groups of tyrants in a nomadic society. Doesn’t apply to all circumstances, but I never claimed it did.

                • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  7 months ago

                  What about things like rape or sexist crimes in general? What about crimes motivated by racism, ableism or a clashing of ideologies?

                  The only thing anarchists have to say about these things are a vague “the communities will handle it themselves” which sounds an awful lot like police again to me.

                  Just this time the police doesn’t have to follow laws at all and it’s basically my neighbours who will make up their own rules. This is a thought that runs shivers down my spine and not because of happiness.

                  • Prunebutt@feddit.de
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    4
                    ·
                    7 months ago

                    If you claim that anything that resembles an answer to crimes is a “police”, then you’re talkino about something different than everyone else. The police as it exists today is there to fight class tensions and keep the current order of things.

                    Do youeknow how many cases of rape cases currently lead to a conviction? Compare that to convictions of people stealing food or not being able to pay their rent.

                    Crime will always exist. Currently, the way of preventing crime is by individualistic punishment, taking people away from the community they’re in and the fear of the aforementioned. That is not the only way to “fight” crime. Handling crime as an injury of the community and focusing on healing that wound as a community is IMHO a way more effective way that enablino bullies to get a power high.

                    The police make up the law as they go all the time. Ever heard of “the blue wall of silence”? They cover for each other when someone steps out of line, because to them, group cohesion is more important than playing by the rules.

                    You seem to not understand what bottom-up decision making is.

            • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              7 months ago

              Anarchist theory almost exclusively talks about political motivated crime they propose will stop when the state and all it’s structures are abolished.

              Non-political crime they mostly only brush over and suggest the communities will handle it themselves.

              So no, they don’t have a concept of how people are supposed to protect themselve from crimes that aren’t politically motivated.

              • irmoz
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                7 months ago

                Anarchist theory almost exclusively talks about political motivated crime they propose will stop when the state and all it’s structures are abolished.

                You haven’t actually read any anarchist theory, have you? This is a fucking joke.

                • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  No, it’s actually one of the most problematic points in anarchist theory. How to handle people who are cruel or who do not respect social contracts. The fact that many anarchists want to abolish police but than want to build a structure similar to police or do not discuss the topic at all is showing they don’t have a solution.

                  Stirner for example basically ignores the topic. Kropotkin only addresses crimes which have the state as basis (property and political crime).

                  Please share which Anarchist theoretist formulated a concrete plan on how to deal with non-political crime in practice.

                  • irmoz
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    7 months ago

                    How to handle people who are cruel or who do not respect social contracts. The fact that many anarchists want to abolish police but than want to build a structure similar to police or do not discuss the topic at all is showing they don’t have a solution.

                    Again, you haven’t read any theory, have you? Have you really never heard of diffuse sanctions? Stop embarrassing yourself.

              • Prunebutt@feddit.de
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                ·
                7 months ago

                That’s because you can’t over-generalize these things without gausing great injustice in the process.

                The communities on a ground level know best how to handle crimes in the community. If you want laws encompassing everyone in every facet of life: go read a bible or something.

                • ParsnipWitch@feddit.de
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  ·
                  7 months ago

                  You are advocating for exactly that to happen. Many bible communities would rejoice in anarchy bevause then they can enforce all their fucked up rules again and kids who are born into these communities… Well, tough luck I guess. Your community on the ground level decided it’s okay to burn people as witches who have red hair.

                  • irmoz
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    ·
                    7 months ago

                    Many bible communities would rejoice in anarchy bevause then they can enforce all their fucked up rules again

                    Lol no. Absolutely not! Anarchists would be 100% against these kinds of structures, so they wouldn’t be allowed to exist.

                  • Prunebutt@feddit.de
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    ·
                    7 months ago

                    Many bible communities would rejoice in anarchy bevause then they can enforce all their fucked up rules again and kids who are born into these communities…

                    Yeah, because religion didn’t spread through conquest. /s

                    Your community on the ground level decided it’s okay to burn people as witches who have red hair.

                    You have a really fucked up image of humanity, do you know that? You do know that Hobbes was wrong with his Leviathan, right?

          • TheSanSabaSongbird@lemdro.id
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            7 months ago

            In the real world practice of small-scale egalitarian societies, these people either get killed, or the group packs up and goes somewhere else. That’s how humanity lived for the hundreds of thousands of years before we invented agriculture.

            How we translate that into a contemporary agricultural context where private property and control of resources is a real force is beyond me, but I do think that we have to try.

      • irmoz
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        7 months ago

        These two statements seem at odds.