Honestly the question is would anybody care enough to do something about it? I see headlines everyday finger wagging at bigwigs all across the world but nothing actually gets done to them.
There are 6 million people in Israel, of that about 2 million is Israel Palestinian.
There are a about 6 million people in Palestinian.
If Israel won’t let Palestine be a independent country, then the 4 million Isrealies and the 8 million Palestinians need to integrate and come to some South African truth and reconciliation level of cultural assimilation.
Not letting people be independent but making them second class citizens will never see a end to violence.
But Palestine and especially the Hamas are also denying Israel their right to be an independent country. The Hamas is also denying Jews in general their existence and wants to eradicate them, how does this work in your equation?
The conflict between Israel and Palestine is the real one and worth solving, but the Hamas is nothing more than a terror organization.
I agree. Hamas is an intractable bad actor. To get reconciliation between the populations, we need to have both populations engaged in a hopeful future, so that most of the population does not support religious extremists violent bad actors. We have to make Hamas the worst option for the general population, not the best.
Israel and Palestine both exist on the same land. There’s no solution that’s going to make everybody happy. In an ideal world they’d both have their independent territory split, and let bygones be bygones. But that’s not the world we live in.
If Palestine can’t have its own land, then I see the only tenable solution is integration between the populations. You can’t have an effectively imprisoned population and expect stability.
Honestly, I blame the British. Their long history of drawing lines on maps, the local people be damned, has been the source of lots of conflict.
Other potential options I see: a UN military force maintaining a separation between the populations, and a road to independence.
A secular government, from all religions, being the administrative head of the entire territory, and then religious governments for subregions to represent their direct populations. Something like the state model in the United States.
I agree on most points with you. But don’t forget we had the UN draw a line between both countries and declared their independence. The answer was a declaration of war to Israel, which they actually won and which resulted in an enlargement of the territory of Israel, which I don’t call fair or helpful in this conflict but understandable from the point of the “winner”…
I blame both sides for their actions but as long as the Hamas or the Hisbollah exist I can’t see any chance for peace and I really can’t blame Israel for fighting against terrorists. And please don’t forget the Hamas is also very responsible for the death of civilians in Palestine, this is actually part of their strategy and very welcomed by their leadership. Civilian casualties are always welcomed by terrorists because they create anger, desperation and rage and fuel their shameful cause even further.
A lot of these discussions get bogged down about who is right, who is wrong, who is morally justified. It doesn’t matter at the nation state level.
I’m not familiar with the UN enforced independence, I do know the UN secured the Gaza Egypt border for a period of time.
There are intransigent bad actors on both sides, religious extremists on the Palestinian side, and agitating settlers on the Israeli government side. So no matter what happens, there’s always going to be bad activities, that’s going to spark up more bad blood at the population level.
Hamas, absolutely wants to create civilian casualties on both sides, because it helps their recruitment, helps reinforce their mission, draws an attention internationally, gets them funding and weapons. Give us money look we stir shit up, we could stir shit up for you.
So going back to the real politic, the current situation is not going to be resolved with a military incursion on either side. I’m not sure who benefits from this situation long-term, but when both parties just keep repeating previous actions, they’re stuck in a loop.
Perhaps this latest activity Will be used to depopulate Gaza migrating everybody to the West Bank, we’re then hamas’s political power would be diminished. I think that would spur a lot more violence, but maybe clearing Gaza is more important than the violence. I’m not sure.
It could be so simple. Eradicate the degenerated Hamas, create a demilitarized zone between both countries, accept the other countries existence and independence and then fuck off and live happily in your part of the country.
At the moment there is so much bad blood that I don’t think that the current generation can reach a truce. It doesn’t also help that neither of the sides is ready to make any concessions and without concessions long lasting peace would never be achieved.
What Hamas did requires a response from Israel, and no amount of “truce now, k?” will be work. It’s sad, but the only course for Israel is to hit back, and hard. Anything less would be bending over and showing Hamas can do this again.
In other words, you can’t stab a person, and then go “whoa stahp” when the bleeding guy pulls a bigger gun on you.
Bystanderd will be hurt, but I hope it will be over quick and afterwards there can be a path towards something better.
Hamas has a lot of hostages now, including some high value ones from the IDF. They also severely humiliated the Israeli military and intelligence apparatus, reminding the world that Israel is not invulnerable and demonstrating that Hamas is a more formidable force than ever, which will help them get more international support. I think Hamas is in a strong position to secure concessions from Israel.
I suppose there is a non-zero chance that Israel decides to forsake the hostages, but I think the political cost would be too high. Also, that would really hurt IDF morale and discipline if there’s suddenly a new policy that they won’t negotiate your release if you get captured.
Something else to consider is that maybe Gaza kind of serves as a perpetual crisis that helps the Israeli hardliners maintain their grip on power. They might still want to keep it around.
I’m not expecting a clear cut, what I’m expecting is the annexation of the western edge of Gaza to gain effective control over all points of entry to be able to raise siege whenever they decide Gaza is being a problem.
After enough sieges trading in Gaza will become so costly just from risk assessment of having goods seized by the IDF that Gaza will have nothing left but the fish they’re able to get out of the Mediterranean. Anyone sending them weapons would be doing so at significant loss, and while running the risk of being put on international blast whenever they get caught.
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If they wipe out Gaza that’s 2.2million people to be “clear cut”. That’s not a good look no matter how much good PR a side has
Honestly the question is would anybody care enough to do something about it? I see headlines everyday finger wagging at bigwigs all across the world but nothing actually gets done to them.
If history is the guide, no one will intervene in the depopulation of a well armed country until the antagonist country makes international war.
They’ve been murdering Palestinians for decades already. And nobody gave a shit, why would they start now?
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There are 6 million people in Israel, of that about 2 million is Israel Palestinian.
There are a about 6 million people in Palestinian.
If Israel won’t let Palestine be a independent country, then the 4 million Isrealies and the 8 million Palestinians need to integrate and come to some South African truth and reconciliation level of cultural assimilation.
Not letting people be independent but making them second class citizens will never see a end to violence.
But Palestine and especially the Hamas are also denying Israel their right to be an independent country. The Hamas is also denying Jews in general their existence and wants to eradicate them, how does this work in your equation?
The conflict between Israel and Palestine is the real one and worth solving, but the Hamas is nothing more than a terror organization.
Israel purposely helped Hamas to power so there would be no moderate Palestinians to foster a peaceful solution.
I agree. Hamas is an intractable bad actor. To get reconciliation between the populations, we need to have both populations engaged in a hopeful future, so that most of the population does not support religious extremists violent bad actors. We have to make Hamas the worst option for the general population, not the best.
Israel and Palestine both exist on the same land. There’s no solution that’s going to make everybody happy. In an ideal world they’d both have their independent territory split, and let bygones be bygones. But that’s not the world we live in.
If Palestine can’t have its own land, then I see the only tenable solution is integration between the populations. You can’t have an effectively imprisoned population and expect stability.
Honestly, I blame the British. Their long history of drawing lines on maps, the local people be damned, has been the source of lots of conflict.
Other potential options I see: a UN military force maintaining a separation between the populations, and a road to independence.
A secular government, from all religions, being the administrative head of the entire territory, and then religious governments for subregions to represent their direct populations. Something like the state model in the United States.
I agree on most points with you. But don’t forget we had the UN draw a line between both countries and declared their independence. The answer was a declaration of war to Israel, which they actually won and which resulted in an enlargement of the territory of Israel, which I don’t call fair or helpful in this conflict but understandable from the point of the “winner”…
I blame both sides for their actions but as long as the Hamas or the Hisbollah exist I can’t see any chance for peace and I really can’t blame Israel for fighting against terrorists. And please don’t forget the Hamas is also very responsible for the death of civilians in Palestine, this is actually part of their strategy and very welcomed by their leadership. Civilian casualties are always welcomed by terrorists because they create anger, desperation and rage and fuel their shameful cause even further.
A lot of these discussions get bogged down about who is right, who is wrong, who is morally justified. It doesn’t matter at the nation state level.
I’m not familiar with the UN enforced independence, I do know the UN secured the Gaza Egypt border for a period of time.
There are intransigent bad actors on both sides, religious extremists on the Palestinian side, and agitating settlers on the Israeli government side. So no matter what happens, there’s always going to be bad activities, that’s going to spark up more bad blood at the population level.
Hamas, absolutely wants to create civilian casualties on both sides, because it helps their recruitment, helps reinforce their mission, draws an attention internationally, gets them funding and weapons. Give us money look we stir shit up, we could stir shit up for you.
So going back to the real politic, the current situation is not going to be resolved with a military incursion on either side. I’m not sure who benefits from this situation long-term, but when both parties just keep repeating previous actions, they’re stuck in a loop.
Perhaps this latest activity Will be used to depopulate Gaza migrating everybody to the West Bank, we’re then hamas’s political power would be diminished. I think that would spur a lot more violence, but maybe clearing Gaza is more important than the violence. I’m not sure.
It could be so simple. Eradicate the degenerated Hamas, create a demilitarized zone between both countries, accept the other countries existence and independence and then fuck off and live happily in your part of the country.
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At the moment there is so much bad blood that I don’t think that the current generation can reach a truce. It doesn’t also help that neither of the sides is ready to make any concessions and without concessions long lasting peace would never be achieved.
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Now wipe out Hamas, that’s something I could get behind. All the best for the rest of Palestine.
edit: and someone actually downvoted me for not supporting child murdering terrorists. World’s gone to shit.
What Hamas did requires a response from Israel, and no amount of “truce now, k?” will be work. It’s sad, but the only course for Israel is to hit back, and hard. Anything less would be bending over and showing Hamas can do this again.
In other words, you can’t stab a person, and then go “whoa stahp” when the bleeding guy pulls a bigger gun on you.
Bystanderd will be hurt, but I hope it will be over quick and afterwards there can be a path towards something better.
Before you engage with what I said, be sure to read up on https://lemmy.world/comment/4385358
I wish Hamas could be eradicated, it would be the single best step for Palestine, and not far behind, Israel and the rest of the world.
Hamas has a lot of hostages now, including some high value ones from the IDF. They also severely humiliated the Israeli military and intelligence apparatus, reminding the world that Israel is not invulnerable and demonstrating that Hamas is a more formidable force than ever, which will help them get more international support. I think Hamas is in a strong position to secure concessions from Israel.
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The Netanyahu government famously traded over one thousand Palestinian prisoners, including some lifers, for a single live IDF soldier. There have also been significant trades just for captured remains. So, the precedent is that Israel will pay a big price to get its people back.
I suppose there is a non-zero chance that Israel decides to forsake the hostages, but I think the political cost would be too high. Also, that would really hurt IDF morale and discipline if there’s suddenly a new policy that they won’t negotiate your release if you get captured.
Something else to consider is that maybe Gaza kind of serves as a perpetual crisis that helps the Israeli hardliners maintain their grip on power. They might still want to keep it around.
You’d be quite wrong to think that.
Oh wow thank you for the detailed analysis.
I’m not expecting a clear cut, what I’m expecting is the annexation of the western edge of Gaza to gain effective control over all points of entry to be able to raise siege whenever they decide Gaza is being a problem.
After enough sieges trading in Gaza will become so costly just from risk assessment of having goods seized by the IDF that Gaza will have nothing left but the fish they’re able to get out of the Mediterranean. Anyone sending them weapons would be doing so at significant loss, and while running the risk of being put on international blast whenever they get caught.
Yeah having a slave labor force for manual labor has been pretty useful and I’m sure Israel isn’t in a rush to completely get rid of that.