While it’s definitely PRESENT in Lord of the Rings, one could argue Frodo himself is a subversion of it. Giving the ring to someone powerful would almost inevitably result in corrupting them and (depending on just how powerful they were) would just make a new big bad. Hobbits work as ring bearers explicitly because they’re not “special”.
I’ve been listening to the Andy Serkis reading it lately. First experience since I was a kid. It’s surprisingly nuanced for something so old and so baked into the popular culture. It’s kind of amazing how flattened my memory of it from childhood is.
Sorcerers: Magic blood line or other innate gift of birth. Basically magic aristocracy.
Wizards: Usually anyone can be a wizard, its the magic equivelent of studying hard in college.
Warlocks: Anyone can be a warlock if they’re willing to make a deal with the devil; the magic equivelent of dropping out to become a stripper.
Pretty much every fantasy has the magical aristocracy but the latter two are available to regular people in a lot of fantasies too, though wizardry is often gatekept and magical pacts tend to be for villains only.
Jinn traditionally are magical beings (beings of essential fire) from the Dusky Lands. We assume they’re stuck in jars because Solomon vacuumed a bunch up (angels too) and stuffed them into objects, sometimes geasing them so they are bound to serve.
This is how King Soli got his civil works projects done.
There are tens of thousands of Solomon’s captured Jinns, spread asunder and lost to time. But beware opening a vessel with Solomon’s seal. Some are untamed and with just kill you, while others are tricky and will spoil any requests.
Those that are bound usually are limited only by their own endurance and patience. It’s fairies who like to number their boons.
Sorcerers and Witches, those who practice magic without a license from the religious establishment, often consulted by the poor and underprivileged since the undesirables can’t simply walk into Oz without the right fancy dress.
Thieves, shunned by all since stealing is a greater sin than murder or human sacrifice (mostly because it’s a lower-class crime), but are clever enough to activate wands, identity herbs and potions and use practical household magic, just from ad-hoc experience and fiddling around.
Discworld would be a good example of fantasy that doesn’t follow this trope (pretty sure in that world anyone can study magic, but like everything else that doesn’t mean everyone is good at it).
Only just finished the first entry, and this is still the case by the end of that book at least. The main character does have a kind of “raw power” that goes beyond what others have innately, which is a bit exceptional-ising.
It’s hard to pin down, but the tone is more community oriented, and less about this one Special.
Tbh I am really pissed about this in One Piece’s rather latest track. The will of D. and people with the D. names could have been pretty ordinary people with strong wills, good nature, social skills etc. opposing the injustices we see in the manga, but lately with all this reincarnation of Sun God Nika stuff, it is no different than what Naruto and Sasuke have been reduced to.
I know it is 25 years in the making and cultures and perceptions change, along with perception of tropes in entertainment, but can we at least go beyond this “the special one” or “the chosen one” stories?
I also know Oda has been a spectacular surpriser and a mangaka that can connect and change most trivial things to most core stuff to do unforeseen changes to the core of his world-crafting, but my doubts in One Piece being as unique as it was before the New World has been increasing these last 10 years of commercialization of it.
I understand the hesitation completely as I also dislike the shonen reincarnation plots but I do think it differs quite a lot in that one piece is and has always been about inherited will, and that hasn’t changed at all with the sun god reveal.
Luffy has the inherited will of Roger, not nika, I would argue that in terms of blood line nonsense luffy has a special bloodline from when we find out his father and grandfather? So far before the new world. Literally as far back as logue town.
But even then, its again actually about inherited will, since luffy inherits Rogers will from Shanks, completely fucks off his grandfather’s will. And isn’t even aware he has a father, he acts of his own accord, the will of nika doesn’t manifest until awakening.
As far as I’m concerned, devil fruits and haki are all expressions of willpower in one piece. Also it was never about ordinary people, there are specifically ‘ordinary people’ on the crew within the first five members to contrast with the rest of the crew being clearly insanely superhuman from episode one.
The characters are chosen by fate by having inherited will from those that they idolise and emulated at the right time. Which is more or less exactly how real life (narritively) works anyway.
Sorry for rant or w/e but ‘the chosen one’ trope I agree gets boring but… Idk it doesn’t fully apply to Luffy. But I won’t pretend there aren’t some elements that apply to Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Nami, Usopp, Robin, Franky, Brook and Jinbei.
I mean listing the main crew they are all fitting of those archetypes in different ways and always have been?
If we talk of ‘the special one’ that applies to any and all exceptional people real or fictional. So avoiding that you would just be writing a story about unexceptional people doing normal things. Which is all well and good, but don’t be surprised when you don’t find that in shonen manga. 😅
Ah, I didn’t wanna give the impression of completely ordinary so as to be a character from Dostoevsky’s novels, but I guess how I wrote it can easily take the topic there. Just wanted to make the distinction between “you are someone special’s descendant, albeit without yours’ or viewers’ knowledge till the story ends” vs “you are someone special only through your efforts, even among the specialty group of ninjas, heroes, devil fruit users etc.” The first one has been pretty much trodden with either last minute revelations justifying huge power-ups, or setting the stage for the plot armor of the protagonists.
I’d argue that the will of ancestors is different, and even their effect on Luffy’s development is rather through direct action than just being related by blood. Without Dragon directly interfering, Buggy would have got Luffy in Loguetown. “Strong blood” was never something openly used in One Piece before, even more it was pretty much criticized through some villains like Axe-hand Morgan’s fascist ideology and the showcases of Celestial Dragons.
The illusion of re-emerging endurance through hardships all over again just thanks to willpower is just as a basic, and as a tired trope for plot as the use of ancestry, but it can nevertheless result in a good variety of situations like the post-Shabody separate training arc, and is a much more comfortable aspect to cheer for a protagonist through.
Having the ancient and most powerful spirit emerge through the protagonist to beat up the bad guys is pretty much against how Luffy’s efforts are portrayed. Yes, Luffy does not acknowledge such a thing and plays the usual fool to not understand it, but for all intents and purposes, except for one to subvert later for a possible plot-twist, Luffy is regarded as Nika by the other characters and the audience. In my opinion, Luffy should have been rejecting such a thing as reincarnation or even personification of someone else outright so as to assert the quality, fun, and morals of his own efforts than to utilize ancient bloodline powers, like rejecting Raleigh’s offer for the explanation of One Piece and being played favourites as well as being deprived of the fun of overcoming things by oneself.
Inherited will being a culture, thought structure, morals, or aspirations vs being some ancient person’s spiritual being has been pretty distinct for me in One Piece till about Nika exposè.
It is a taste issue, and as far I can see you try to help out with the reframing the problem I have to resolve it, and I thank you for that.
I really hope oda turns it around by pitting luffys freedom against his destiny, but i dont think so. I dont even know really what was the point, I mean his awakening could have had these powers either way.
Yeah its kinda dissapointing, and made one piece feel less special
From what I remember of the Neverending Story (the book), Bastian Balthazar Bux is just some kid with a good imagination, and he ends up as essentially their god; so.
due to the way causality works it would be pretty difficult to tell a story in any genre where someone’s opportunities in life are not strongly correlated to circumstances from their past that are outside of their control (like their birth)
Cosmere books have an interesting spin on it. First an important caveat: all powers require some sort of fuel in the cosmere universe, or some sort or store/release mechanism. Therefore while poor and rich alike can gain powers, being able to afford to use those powers can vary. Some individual series deets(all of these exist in the same galaxy, but across different planets and sometimes different levels of tech)
Mistborn starts out looking like it fits the comic, with main characters being halfbloods with noble parents. However, some of the supporting super-powered people don’t have that background, and as you go down the series some things start revealing what people believe about the powers isn’t quite true.
Stormlight doesn’t follow the bloodline thing at all, and various people of all classes and bloodlines develop superpowers, and inheriting it isn’t the mechanism at all. Money can be a limiting factor, but isn’t strictly one.
Warbeaker is somewhat more mixed. There is a power system anyone in the whole population can use, but the logistics of using it means people in power have a much easier time getting the needed resources to use it at higher levels. The resource is kinda tricky, so it isn’t something that can be regulated or even stolen, but can be gained by anyone who can convince, coerce, or pay someone for their resource(everyone is born with 1, but you need lots to be powerful).
In addition, of the 4 main protags, 2 are princesses of a minor tribelike country, one is mysterious and too much spoilers to discuss, while the 4th is treated as a minor God, but is treated that way due to a more unique power system, but also one that isn’t class based. A bit complicated but a concept explained early in the book: Returned are people who come back to life, and people worship them because of two features they have: they might dream about the near future, but won’t understand it themselves, and they can sacrifice their second life to perfectly heal any one person. They have limits I won’t go into here though.
Summary: powers in their true form do not discriminate, but situations and societal structure allows some of them to be manipulated that way.
If we’re talking about Paul, he’s the result of over ten millennia of a secret breeding program by the bene gesserit (albeit a generation earlier than planned) AND royalty.
I love Dune more than anything outside of Hitchhiker’s Guide, but I don’t think Paul really fits here. He’s double special before the spice.
Not exactly fantasy, but Great Expectations by Dickens has a boy who grows up totally normal and then has his life transformed by a mysterious benefactor. It doesn’t go the way the kid expects.
Also, Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive & Tress and the Emerald Sea feature kinds of magic that can be accessible by anyone if they engage with it right. So perhaps give those a go. SA is a long series, but Tress is pretty approachable.
The main character Tau from The Rage of Dragons by Evan Winter is very much from a lower class, but keeps up with the Gifted by being fucking insane. He’ll go through any pain and not let anything stop him to improve his fighting skills and take revenge. I’d recommend it if you want a story about someone who’s not particularly special.
I think in G4 bloodlines were brought up only twice: once indirectly with character named Blueblood, which was complete idiot, and other time when Pinkie and Applejack turned out to be distant siblings.
In G5 movie there was pegasus family that was saying they are royals because their family can fly, while others couldn’t, but actually
the webnovel Delve on royalroad is specifically about this, the main character is just a neurodivergent dude who gets isekaied to a world with an (artificial) rpg system and through the mystical arts of autistic hyperfocus he figures out how to break the system over his knees and share it with others.
in later parts of the story he and his friends found an organization specifically to level people up and they have to figure out how to set up the structure to be as democratic as possible while still recognizing the fact that they depend on the few most powerful individuals to make the whole thing work for the time being.
There’s an anime that kind of flips this around. Instead of an everyman who can use magic, the protagonist is someone born in the royal family but can’t use magic. Don’t know if this counts.
Is there fantasy that isn’t like this
While it’s definitely PRESENT in Lord of the Rings, one could argue Frodo himself is a subversion of it. Giving the ring to someone powerful would almost inevitably result in corrupting them and (depending on just how powerful they were) would just make a new big bad. Hobbits work as ring bearers explicitly because they’re not “special”.
Bilbo is rich and Frodo is a nepobaby.
The Hobbit, then.
I’ve been listening to the Andy Serkis reading it lately. First experience since I was a kid. It’s surprisingly nuanced for something so old and so baked into the popular culture. It’s kind of amazing how flattened my memory of it from childhood is.
Dune as well. And Snowcrash too
Dunno if Dune fits.
https://lemmy.world/comment/10775685
Snow Crash is satire, though. And not exactly high fantasy.
The basic options for magic are:
Pretty much every fantasy has the magical aristocracy but the latter two are available to regular people in a lot of fantasies too, though wizardry is often gatekept and magical pacts tend to be for villains only.
I love comparing becoming a warlock to becoming a stripper
Especially since it doesn’t have to be a devil per se, just any entity that’s more powerful than you and willing to share.
That is to say: GOO-locks strip for C’thulu
Are people getting powers in return for stripping for C’thulu?
And here I am, just doing it for fun.
Gotta get that magic sugar daddy.
Let’s not forget djinni, who are magic through being cursed to have powers. Like Ice King from Adventure Time
Jinn traditionally are magical beings (beings of essential fire) from the Dusky Lands. We assume they’re stuck in jars because Solomon vacuumed a bunch up (angels too) and stuffed them into objects, sometimes geasing them so they are bound to serve.
This is how King Soli got his civil works projects done.
There are tens of thousands of Solomon’s captured Jinns, spread asunder and lost to time. But beware opening a vessel with Solomon’s seal. Some are untamed and with just kill you, while others are tricky and will spoil any requests.
Those that are bound usually are limited only by their own endurance and patience. It’s fairies who like to number their boons.
Sorcerers and Witches, those who practice magic without a license from the religious establishment, often consulted by the poor and underprivileged since the undesirables can’t simply walk into Oz without the right fancy dress.
Thieves, shunned by all since stealing is a greater sin than murder or human sacrifice (mostly because it’s a lower-class crime), but are clever enough to activate wands, identity herbs and potions and use practical household magic, just from ad-hoc experience and fiddling around.
You need some kind of bullshit.
There must be.
Haven’t read it, yet, but I have high hopes for the Earthsea books.
Discworld would be a good example of fantasy that doesn’t follow this trope (pretty sure in that world anyone can study magic, but like everything else that doesn’t mean everyone is good at it).
It’s also an explicit subversion of fantasy. I don’t know if that counts.
As far as I can remember, the main character is just some random son of a smith.
Only just finished the first entry, and this is still the case by the end of that book at least. The main character does have a kind of “raw power” that goes beyond what others have innately, which is a bit exceptional-ising.
It’s hard to pin down, but the tone is more community oriented, and less about this one Special.
Tbh I am really pissed about this in One Piece’s rather latest track. The will of D. and people with the D. names could have been pretty ordinary people with strong wills, good nature, social skills etc. opposing the injustices we see in the manga, but lately with all this reincarnation of Sun God Nika stuff, it is no different than what Naruto and Sasuke have been reduced to.
I know it is 25 years in the making and cultures and perceptions change, along with perception of tropes in entertainment, but can we at least go beyond this “the special one” or “the chosen one” stories?
I also know Oda has been a spectacular surpriser and a mangaka that can connect and change most trivial things to most core stuff to do unforeseen changes to the core of his world-crafting, but my doubts in One Piece being as unique as it was before the New World has been increasing these last 10 years of commercialization of it.
I understand the hesitation completely as I also dislike the shonen reincarnation plots but I do think it differs quite a lot in that one piece is and has always been about inherited will, and that hasn’t changed at all with the sun god reveal.
Luffy has the inherited will of Roger, not nika, I would argue that in terms of blood line nonsense luffy has a special bloodline from when we find out his father and grandfather? So far before the new world. Literally as far back as logue town. But even then, its again actually about inherited will, since luffy inherits Rogers will from Shanks, completely fucks off his grandfather’s will. And isn’t even aware he has a father, he acts of his own accord, the will of nika doesn’t manifest until awakening. As far as I’m concerned, devil fruits and haki are all expressions of willpower in one piece. Also it was never about ordinary people, there are specifically ‘ordinary people’ on the crew within the first five members to contrast with the rest of the crew being clearly insanely superhuman from episode one. The characters are chosen by fate by having inherited will from those that they idolise and emulated at the right time. Which is more or less exactly how real life (narritively) works anyway.
Sorry for rant or w/e but ‘the chosen one’ trope I agree gets boring but… Idk it doesn’t fully apply to Luffy. But I won’t pretend there aren’t some elements that apply to Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Nami, Usopp, Robin, Franky, Brook and Jinbei. I mean listing the main crew they are all fitting of those archetypes in different ways and always have been?
If we talk of ‘the special one’ that applies to any and all exceptional people real or fictional. So avoiding that you would just be writing a story about unexceptional people doing normal things. Which is all well and good, but don’t be surprised when you don’t find that in shonen manga. 😅
Ah, I didn’t wanna give the impression of completely ordinary so as to be a character from Dostoevsky’s novels, but I guess how I wrote it can easily take the topic there. Just wanted to make the distinction between “you are someone special’s descendant, albeit without yours’ or viewers’ knowledge till the story ends” vs “you are someone special only through your efforts, even among the specialty group of ninjas, heroes, devil fruit users etc.” The first one has been pretty much trodden with either last minute revelations justifying huge power-ups, or setting the stage for the plot armor of the protagonists.
I’d argue that the will of ancestors is different, and even their effect on Luffy’s development is rather through direct action than just being related by blood. Without Dragon directly interfering, Buggy would have got Luffy in Loguetown. “Strong blood” was never something openly used in One Piece before, even more it was pretty much criticized through some villains like Axe-hand Morgan’s fascist ideology and the showcases of Celestial Dragons.
The illusion of re-emerging endurance through hardships all over again just thanks to willpower is just as a basic, and as a tired trope for plot as the use of ancestry, but it can nevertheless result in a good variety of situations like the post-Shabody separate training arc, and is a much more comfortable aspect to cheer for a protagonist through.
Having the ancient and most powerful spirit emerge through the protagonist to beat up the bad guys is pretty much against how Luffy’s efforts are portrayed. Yes, Luffy does not acknowledge such a thing and plays the usual fool to not understand it, but for all intents and purposes, except for one to subvert later for a possible plot-twist, Luffy is regarded as Nika by the other characters and the audience. In my opinion, Luffy should have been rejecting such a thing as reincarnation or even personification of someone else outright so as to assert the quality, fun, and morals of his own efforts than to utilize ancient bloodline powers, like rejecting Raleigh’s offer for the explanation of One Piece and being played favourites as well as being deprived of the fun of overcoming things by oneself.
Inherited will being a culture, thought structure, morals, or aspirations vs being some ancient person’s spiritual being has been pretty distinct for me in One Piece till about Nika exposè.
It is a taste issue, and as far I can see you try to help out with the reframing the problem I have to resolve it, and I thank you for that.
I really hope oda turns it around by pitting luffys freedom against his destiny, but i dont think so. I dont even know really what was the point, I mean his awakening could have had these powers either way.
Yeah its kinda dissapointing, and made one piece feel less special
From what I remember of the Neverending Story (the book), Bastian Balthazar Bux is just some kid with a good imagination, and he ends up as essentially their god; so.
due to the way causality works it would be pretty difficult to tell a story in any genre where someone’s opportunities in life are not strongly correlated to circumstances from their past that are outside of their control (like their birth)
Guts from Berserk. His only gift from birth is rage.
Cosmere books have an interesting spin on it. First an important caveat: all powers require some sort of fuel in the cosmere universe, or some sort or store/release mechanism. Therefore while poor and rich alike can gain powers, being able to afford to use those powers can vary. Some individual series deets(all of these exist in the same galaxy, but across different planets and sometimes different levels of tech)
Mistborn starts out looking like it fits the comic, with main characters being halfbloods with noble parents. However, some of the supporting super-powered people don’t have that background, and as you go down the series some things start revealing what people believe about the powers isn’t quite true.
Stormlight doesn’t follow the bloodline thing at all, and various people of all classes and bloodlines develop superpowers, and inheriting it isn’t the mechanism at all. Money can be a limiting factor, but isn’t strictly one.
Warbeaker is somewhat more mixed. There is a power system anyone in the whole population can use, but the logistics of using it means people in power have a much easier time getting the needed resources to use it at higher levels. The resource is kinda tricky, so it isn’t something that can be regulated or even stolen, but can be gained by anyone who can convince, coerce, or pay someone for their resource(everyone is born with 1, but you need lots to be powerful).
In addition, of the 4 main protags, 2 are princesses of a minor tribelike country, one is mysterious and too much spoilers to discuss, while the 4th is treated as a minor God, but is treated that way due to a more unique power system, but also one that isn’t class based. A bit complicated but a concept explained early in the book: Returned are people who come back to life, and people worship them because of two features they have: they might dream about the near future, but won’t understand it themselves, and they can sacrifice their second life to perfectly heal any one person. They have limits I won’t go into here though.
Summary: powers in their true form do not discriminate, but situations and societal structure allows some of them to be manipulated that way.
Dune
If we’re talking about Paul, he’s the result of over ten millennia of a secret breeding program by the bene gesserit (albeit a generation earlier than planned) AND royalty.
I love Dune more than anything outside of Hitchhiker’s Guide, but I don’t think Paul really fits here. He’s double special before the spice.
The Bene Gesserit would like to have a word with you…
Not exactly fantasy, but Great Expectations by Dickens has a boy who grows up totally normal and then has his life transformed by a mysterious benefactor. It doesn’t go the way the kid expects.
Also, Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive & Tress and the Emerald Sea feature kinds of magic that can be accessible by anyone if they engage with it right. So perhaps give those a go. SA is a long series, but Tress is pretty approachable.
The main character Tau from The Rage of Dragons by Evan Winter is very much from a lower class, but keeps up with the Gifted by being fucking insane. He’ll go through any pain and not let anything stop him to improve his fighting skills and take revenge. I’d recommend it if you want a story about someone who’s not particularly special.
My Little Pony?
I think in G4 bloodlines were brought up only twice: once indirectly with character named Blueblood, which was complete idiot, and other time when Pinkie and Applejack turned out to be distant siblings.
In G5 movie there was pegasus family that was saying they are royals because their family can fly, while others couldn’t, but actually
G5 spoiler
they were faking it, nopony had any magic.
The Name Of The Wind.
the webnovel Delve on royalroad is specifically about this, the main character is just a neurodivergent dude who gets isekaied to a world with an (artificial) rpg system and through the mystical arts of autistic hyperfocus he figures out how to break the system over his knees and share it with others.
in later parts of the story he and his friends found an organization specifically to level people up and they have to figure out how to set up the structure to be as democratic as possible while still recognizing the fact that they depend on the few most powerful individuals to make the whole thing work for the time being.
It’s easier to imagine a different world than it is to imagine one without capitalism.
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There’s an anime that kind of flips this around. Instead of an everyman who can use magic, the protagonist is someone born in the royal family but can’t use magic. Don’t know if this counts.
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I have multiple ideas for games like that. I hope I can get people to help me realize them.