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Pretty sure Loki was the mother of Odin’s horse.
And you are correct!
He also got Thor to dress as Freya to pretend to marry a giant king
I personally don’t see that is one of those trans Loki moments, because I’m cis, love joking, and identify with Loki in the tale.
If I were in that situation, I would 1000% find it hilarious to convince my best bro the only way to get their most prized possession back is to crossdress and trick a King.
Classic Loki.
And the father of Fenrir and Jormungandr!
And Angrboda I thought too
Edit: Angrboda was the momma. Hel, the protector of the underworld, was his daughter
No, Angrboda was his mate. You might be thinking of Hel, whom I also forgot to mention.
I’d avoid mentioning it unless you want the ire of the Trickster God.
They’d kidnap and enslave them just like everyone else; true egalitarians!
tbf that’s like talking about the US miliary, who do horrible things without most of the population being aware of it
Close to 100% viking here, you’re welcome! I might enslave you though, but without prejudice.
I feel like you don’t know what a viking is.
How can I not? I am one!
BTW viking society seemingly didnt only kill and plunder ;-)
Vikings were a very particular group of Scandinavians who, during parts of the year, went on their longboats and raided villages and stole stuff to bring home. For most of the year, they were farmers and fishermen. Having Scandinavian ancestry does not make you a viking, they literally don’t exist anymore.
I’m 100% Nordic by the wayWhat about this guy then, huh?
Techno Viking is a time traveller so he doesn’t count. Fun fact, Vikings used to have a rave after a successful raid
Nice try viking. By viking law you can only keep what you kill and a dead slave is worthless, therefore taking a corpse as a slave has no standing. You will just have to settle for the plunder and be on your way.
You forgot the most important Viking law:
I, for one, welcome our new, tolerant, Viking overlords.
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I’m 90% sure vikings would have been more than a little excited by the idea.
You’re just saying that because of Scandinavia’s track record on trans people
Actually modern day Scandinavia’s attitude towards trans people needs some work.
I’m sure a whole lot of people where fine with it until the christofasciast colonisers and occupiers had their way
Loki turned into a mare to get properly fucked by a stallion, get pregnant and deliver an 8 legged super horse (Sleipnir) that Odin proudly rode around… yeah, they are very fine with gender fluidity
I mean, Loki was ultimately a villain, so it’s more like they perfected the queer-coded villain archetype, but there’s also evidence both that Shieldmaidens were a thing and some Shieldbrethen were assigned-as-Shieldmaidens-at-birth. How accepted that would have really been we simply do not know, or how much norms changed by region and time. Or even whether they would have thought you were stupid for asking if ladies could fight in “men’s clothing,” aka, armor.
There is also quite a lot of difference between a Dane, a Kievan Rus, and a citizen of what was basically a republic in Iceland in 930 AD.
Pretending the Vikings/Norse/Whatever were some pinnacle of ancient tolerance is just as wrong as pretending they followed practices that map 1-to-1 on modern bigotry. They were an immensely patriarchal culture, whose economy was quite literally based on chattel slavery on a scale that would only be matched by American plantatioms, with a whole slew of what can only be called toxic masculinity, who only could ever look good in comparison to Roman and Abrahamic norms, but that’s the comparison Westerners will inevitably make in their favor because that is the standard they know.
Doesn’t Loki being a villain vary from myth to myth? In some he’s just mischievous, in others outright malicious. The Ragnarok myth has him leading the armies of the dead, but I’ve always wondered how modified the story is due to the influence of Christian monks…
Pretending the Vikings/Norse/Whatever were some pinnacle of ancient tolerance is just as wrong as pretending they followed practices that map 1-to-1 on modern bigotry…
I’m not pretending any of that… nor I am implying they are an example of morality about anything… All I am saying is that, what we now call “gender fluidity” or simply anything in the “LGBTQ+” spectrum does not seem to be, in and of itself, a “sin” or a morally reprehensible act in the Nordic mythology.
Also, Loki wasn’t really a villain… he was more the “anti hero” type… From all the Nordic mythology I have read (I just like it, I’m not a scholar) the attitude towards him always seemed to be “Damn it Loki, we could get along if you stop being an asshole for a day”… not “I shall vanquish Loki and end his evil ways”
Who cares what a bunch of savage pillagers would have wanted?
What I’m sure of is that the forefathers of modern civilization, the Romans, would have fucking loved trans folks.
I mean, the Romans were just industrialized pillagers. Who cares what they would have thought.
Yeah! What have the romans ever done for us?!
I mean, if you’re going to disregard the contributions of Viking culture because they were notorious for their pillaging, it’s only fair to disregard Rome, whose entire economy was based on systematized pillaging.
Both cultures have contributions, but the wholesale massacre of other civilizations gets a pass when we discuss Rome for some reason.
Give it another 50 years and you can substitute British for American
Why the need for 50 years?
'Cause America is just getting started, baby!
They gave us roads.
Well yeah, obviously the roads. The roads go without saying, don’t they?
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See, even in stuff that was just secondary to them, they were better!
So, you’re talking about the people that emulated greek culture as they viewed it as more refined than their own?
Yeah! I mean they took a good idea and spread it around way more effectively than the Greeks did
The Apple of ancient Europe
The Greeks were isolationists. Each city-state considered itself the center of the world. It wasn’t on their list of priorities to share or spread their culture, unless it involved complete obliteration by conquest.
No joke, didn’t Nero marry a trans woman?
More like forcibly feminized a young slave that resembled his late wife, whom he had beaten to death. I wouldn’t exactly hold him up as an ally.
Holy shit, that took a turn.
Most shit with Nero was pretty gnarly if I remember correctly, he was the person most scholars of that period agree the Antichrist in revelation is supposed to be, that in particular may have primarily been because he implemented taxes on religious organizations though… again it’s been a while since I studied either but I do remember Nero being fucked up even by the standards of Roman emperors
A lot of the trash talk about him was made up by Christian historians, I’m pretty sure the “beating his pregnant wife to death” is confirmed, or at the very least heavily debated, to be one of the made up bullshit. And yes, it’s generally believed that he is the “beast” from Revelation butt again that’s because of the early Christian hate. It’s probably because he accused the early Christian sect of causing the fire of Rome (which we’re still not sure they didn’t), and the whole “throwing them to lions” thing, and they fought back by spreading shit about him.
Marrying a castrated slave lover is legit though, and IINM I think Nero was the one dressed as the bride.
Yeah I’m not trying to say that the early Christian’s were being 100% forthright about it, and like I said I’m way rusty so maybe I shouldn’t of said anything, but considering what we can say we know about him in terms of deeds, makes him at minimum a big piece of shit, I’m inclined to believe he might have done some fucked up shit to others given his power as an emperor and how that usually works in history.
Dude could shred, though.
Not better than that boy from Georgia
My bad.
Idk if he did, but he definitely should have
It’s not about caring what Vikings wanted, it’s just illustrating it was found even in some of the most ancient and “less civilized” cultures. The point being it’s not unusual, new, or unique to our culture.
The problem here is none of y’all know shit about Vikings. Or Northmen. Or whatever you want to call them.
They very much did not. Like violence against cybelian circles and everything against Elagabalus. Julius Caesar would’ve though
Viking: Can you fight?
Trans Viking: yeah!
Viking: cool, let’s go fuck some shit up!
The vikings only cares if you behave Viking. Ethnicity don’t matter. Sexuality don’t matter. And I can’t fathom that they’d care for how you dress. As long as you have Viking values you are top notch
Or actually they might care for how you dress as they were very vain and loved to dress up. Quite fancy
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Yeah this thread is full of idiots who care more about Marvel movies than about historical fact.
Norse society was hyper masculine and being called womanlike was just about the worst insult you could give to someone. Nobody “worshipped” Loki, he was the antagonist/occasionally the antihero of their stories, but the takeaway of the stories was always meant to be “Loki is not a role model”
Why do people care if a society of slavers and pillagers from 1200 years ago were progressive by modern standards? What an idiotic thing to be so confidently wrong about.
Scandiboos don’t care for historical facts. Somehow, Nordic slaver pirates seem to have the best PR team in history and they eat up every last bit.
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Ooo - a true master on Viking history here!! Tell us all about how it really was and what values they had. What ethnicities they accepted and how they viewed homosexuality?
Accusing a man of being “ergi,” which is basically unmanly, was enough of an insult to be answered with blood. A specific instance of something that qualifies a man of being ergi is taking the passive role (bottom) in homosexual intercourse.
Author and Norse historian Neil Price describes “Viking” culture as being one of the most homophobic in history.
Yet being top was accepted and revered. I’d say they were somewhat bi-friendly, and I’ve yet to hear about how they viewed lesbians.
Both Loki and Odin takes the roles/duties of women several times, while not being cast out or referred to as ergi.
Cross dressing I think was harder to execute as the manly outfits were lavish already.
When the giant Thyrm stole Thor’s hammer and wanted to marry Freya, the other gods made Thor dress in drag and pretend to be the bride to get it back.
Thor literally doesn’t want to dress as a woman in this story EXPRESSLY because he fears being labeled ergi. He says this explicitly.
This is story is a comedy, and this portion of it is told as a joke at Thor’s expense, where Loki and Freya tease him about it.
Both Loki and Odin takes the roles/duties of women several times, while not being cast out or referred to as ergi.
I think in that case a neat Latin phrase applies:
Quid licet Iovi, non licet bovi.
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Accusing a man of being “ergi,” which is basically unmanly, was enough of an insult to be answered with blood
“using gay as an insult” is not proof of extreme homophobia. By that logic every teenager on the planet would be extreme homophobic.
In fact, pretty much every descriptive word can be used as an insult. If anything your example proofs, that vikings take insults very serious.
Please don’t accuse me of making claims I did not. I gave one example of homophobia and the opinion of a respected historian. Not every insult was taken as seriously as ergi. Very few insults were as dire. This is ONE example of Viking homophobia. I don’t give a shit if they were homophobic or not, they’re dead.
Accusing a man of being “ergi,” which is basically unmanly, was enough of an insult to be answered with blood.
So is a gay man calling another gay man a faggot. The use as essentially equivalent with “bottom” is only attested since the medieval age.
On the flipside we have things like shield maidens and the survival of the old gods alongside with the patriarchal Indo-European newcomers, very uncommon, those things don’t happen by accident. People don’t talk about peace treaties between gods out of the blue – And Odin isn’t even the sky father, that’d be Thor (to wit, lightning and thunder) while Odin is engaging in seidhr. Call him a bottom, then! Making a claim such as “most homophobic in history” out of a single word given what else there’s attested about the society is rather rich.
The truth is that we don’t know much but this: That any contemporary political group leaning it one way or the other is full of shit.
Please don’t accuse me of making claims I did not. I gave one example of Viking homophobia. It’s also a big example, as “not appearing as an ergi” is pretty much the driving motivation for many of the gods in the tales we have. This means being manly in general, and being penetrated by another is just one thing that immediately labels you as ergi.
Neil Price did not make his claim that Vikings were severely homophobic from a single word either (no idea where you got this). You are free to read his work yourself for more information.
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Dude this is the internet, the burden of proof is on the person anyone says “Source?” to first.
In seriousness though, we’re shooting the shit here. The burden of proof is shared equally. Someone said something, they gave reasoning (a form of evidence) why they think that thing, and you just came and said “No you’re wrong.” The ball is firmly in your court to explain why.
how about if I prove my points and you prove they’re lies
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Right - then I’ll just block you
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Frøya from Norsemen demonstrates this in pretty shocking way when she face rapes some dude for challenging her Vikingness.
Viking virtues like staying true to your word, even if that means death. A deviation of this is the stoning of men that tried to flee from combat - by their wives.
Viking society was very gender based with clear roles for man and woman, and while being a bottom would hurt your manly rep, being the active partner in a homosexual relation would bolster it.
Children still had top prio, so without a wife being too didn’t make the cut.
I’d have let her do it, not that I’d have a choice, but I’d rather be willing, conscious, and proven a fool than unconscious and left only with the smell of her victory.
Let your freak flag fly!
Pretty sure they all got drunk and high and fucked each other in the forest irregardless of gender, to praise their gods.
Read more norse mythology for smart people at
https://norse-mythology.org/gods-and-creatures/the-aesir-gods-and-goddesses/odin/
He’s a war-god, but also a poetry-god, and he has prominent “effeminate” qualities that would have brought unspeakable shame to any historical Viking warrior.
cal tradition known as seidr, of which Odin and Freya are the foremost divine practitioners. In traditional Germanic society, for a man to engage in seidr was effectively to forsake the male gender role, which brought considerable scorn upon any male who chose to take up this path. As the sagas show, this didn’t stop some men from practicing seidr anyway. However, even Odin wasn’t exempt from such charges of “unmanliness,” and was taunted for adopting the feminine traits and tasks that form part of the backbone of seidr. Saxo, in the passage on Odin’s exile alluded to above, relates that “by his stage-tricks and his assumption of a woman’s work he had brought the foulest scandal on the name of the gods.”[16] Note also the reference to being “fertilized” in the verse quoted above – while this is certainly a metaphor, it’s a metaphor loaded with sexual implications that would have been immediately recognizable to any Viking Age or medieval reader or hearer of the poem. A fuller discussion of the relationship between Germanic shamanism and gender roles can be found here: https://norse-mythology.org/concepts/shamanism/
Canonically accurate.
Edit: Huh, you’re going to have to open the image in a new tab to actually read the comic.
who said they wouldn’t
A lot of alt right dickheads use viking insignia and culture to their advantage in dogwistling and such, which sucks and I’m assuming what is being referenced.
Historical fact, most of the surviving written records about their society, etc.
I’m pretty sure modern day viking descendants are ok with them.
Vikings also fucked their friend’s wife when he died. Also were supporters of slavery and have abused their slaves. Am failing to see the point?
She’s probably taking on those hyper masculine white nationalists obsessed with their viking ancestors, not on vikings to be cool again.
Kind of weird post then, not to include the origin of the argument.
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Are there any supporters of slavery that haven’t abused their slaves? It seems to be part of the whole deal.
“NYUUU! THEY WERE WHITE GUYS AND SUPER STRAIGHT AND THEY LOVED JESUS aND… ANDajdas.” - Right Wingers
