• Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
          4·
          11 days ago

          I don’t get it. What’s the line between being into something which is obviously fine and good and “fetishizing” them? This guy is into Latin moms, I don’t see what’s so wrong about that

          • brbposting@sh.itjust.works
            5·
            11 days ago

            Good question. First, from plagiarism machine:

            For Viewing it as Problematic: Focusing on “Latina moms” can be seen as reducing individuals to stereotypes based on their race and role as mothers, which objectifies and disrespects their full identity.

            Against Viewing it as Problematic: If expressed respectfully and consensually, a preference for “Latina moms” could be seen as just another personal attraction, highlighting the diversity in human sexual interests.

            Now, from a researcher who addresses the second point above:

            Why Yellow Fever Isn’t Flattering: A Case Against Racial Fetishes

            Abstract: Most discussions of racial fetish center on the question of whether it is caused by negative racial stereotypes. In this paper I adopt a different strategy, one that begins with the experiences of those targeted by racial fetish rather than those who possess it; that is, I shift focus away from the origins of racial fetishes to their effects as a social phenomenon in a racially stratified world. I examine the case of preferences for Asian women, also known as ‘yellow fever’, to argue against the claim that racial fetishes are unobjectionable if they are merely based on personal or aesthetic preference rather than racial stereotypes. I contend that even if this were so, yellow fever would still be morally objectionable because of the disproportionate psychological burdens it places on Asian and Asian- American women, along with the role it plays in a pernicious system of racial social meanings.

            What do y’all think?

            • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
              4·
              11 days ago

              I think the “reducing to roles” thing is a bit silly. Some are into firemen but I feel like it’d be silly to run around calling that morally objectionable. I don’t think anyone is under the impression a fireman, a teacher or a mom is literally just that role and nothing else.

              I wonder if the race thing would be fine if it was towards the majority group of a country, since most of the objection from the paper seems to be about how it disadvantages people and enforces that disadvantage. That’d lead in funny situations though where being into white guys or gals would be fine in the US but not into black guys or gals. And in Japan it’d be fine to be into Asian guys or gals but not everyone else.

        • Kusimulkku@lemm.ee
          3·
          12 days ago

          You are saying it’s alright to kink shame if you find the kink weird? That’s like, definitely the thing we shouldn’t be doing

  • njm1314@lemmy.world
    128·
    12 days ago

    Engagement and learning usually do end racism yeah, that’s pretty much how it works. Why do you think conservatives are so against things like college and inclusiveness? They don’t like melting pots.

    • IndiBrony@lemmy.worldEnglish
      42·
      12 days ago

      Then when confronted they’ll insist that they’re not racist, that they’re a melting pot of friendship whilst using the classic line: “Some of my best friends happen to be black!”

    • Throwaway@lemm.ee
      2·
      12 days ago

      Because theres a lot of neo-nazis in college advocating for the death of 7 million jews?

        • throwyourway@sh.itjust.works
          3·
          11 days ago

          Edit - on the deleted comments in this thread

          For future readers wondering, since OP decided to overwrite their comment thread (making it seem like a bot deleted it):

          The comment above asked for what sounded like a good faith effort to show that protestors were calling for the death of 7 million Jews. After I provided that in the below comment, the commenter then tried to shift the conversation to other factors of the war, and use the argument “but other people are calling for genocide too”. They then added personal attacks, and in response to me pointing out that Jews are uncomfortable because people are calling for the genocide of nearly half the global Jewish population, responded with “maybe they should be uncomfortable”, implying that they agree with Jews being subject to genocide. They then tried to pretend I’m a bot or an idiot and overwrote all their comments.

          I know it’s a tiny little corner of the internet, and ultimately doesn’t matter that much if an argument is preserved, but it matters to me. This is the kind of thing I face regularly. This is also the reason I wrote it with a throwaway account.

          Original comment below

          Zionists don’t deserve to live.

          Be grateful that I’m not just going out and murdering Zionists.

          (Source)

          From one of the leaders of the protest at Columbia, who also led around 200 protesters to surround 3 Jews who came to the site and led them to chant “expel the Zionists” (video of the incident in the article).

          This is also just what’s publicly reported on, not including Israeli news sources who often report on other incidents that don’t make it to reputable American media, nor including personal incidents that I and my family and friends have been subjected to.

          Edit: more stuff, though more dubious source, with a list of chants at protests: https://www.algemeiner.com/2024/04/22/hamas-we-love-you-list-chants-statements-columbia-universitys-gaza-solidarity-encampment/. Some of these I’ve heard personally, including “We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!”

          And another one with less info, more reputable source: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/may/03/college-gaza-protests-antisemitism

          • stembolts@programming.dev
            1·
            11 days ago

            I’m so done with this thread. No one can be this shortsighted, I refuse to believe these posts are made by anything other than bots.

            • throwyourway@sh.itjust.works
              2·
              11 days ago

              No, because you’re changing the discussion. You were making the claim that people aren’t calling for the death of all Israelis. I’m saying, they are. Israeli government officials also calling for the death of Palestinians doesn’t change the fact that in the US, where I am, people are actively protesting for the death of 7 million Jews, as the above commenter said.

              I’m not looking to get into a larger argument about the state of the war; I have my own opinions but I hold them to myself for the moment.

              That doesn’t invalidate my point that Jews are feeling threatened because people are calling for at best the displacement of, and at worst the death of everyone in the one and only Jewish state - the state where the majority of the worlds Jewish population lives, and most Jews likely have family or connections in. And that’s even taking the more charitable assumption that it’s not a dogwhistle or precursor to calling for the death of all Jews, as many other protests in the past have.

              • stembolts@programming.dev
                1·
                11 days ago

                I’m so done with this thread. No one can be this shortsighted, I refuse to believe these posts are made by anything other than bots.

                • throwyourway@sh.itjust.works
                  1·
                  11 days ago

                  Once again, observing in disgust is not the same as calling for the death of 7 million Jews. And it shows a lot that when I presented you with that evidence, you didn’t say “that’s awful, no one should call for the extermination of all the people in a nation”, but “yeah, you deserve it”. Funny how you get all up in arms about genocide, but ignore calls for genocide against those you don’t like.

                  Edit: oh sorry, I misread, you’re not just ignoring it, are you? You’re actively AGREEING that Jews should fear people wanting to kill them all.

            • throwyourway@sh.itjust.works
              1·
              11 days ago

              Thanks for engaging in good faith :) this is why Jews feel so safe and comfortable, knowing that when they raise valid concerns about people calling for their death, everyone immediately jumps to their defense, saying “no one should die!” and not “yeah, you deserve it!”

              Also: world Jewish population: 15.7mil, or 0.2% of the world population. Estimated Jews killed in the Holocaust: 5-6mil, about 60% of the world Jewish population. This has happened before and it will happen again: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_antisemitism

              • stembolts@programming.dev
                1·
                11 days ago

                I’m so done with this thread. No one can be this shortsighted, I refuse to believe these posts are made by anything other than bots.

        • Throwaway@lemm.ee
          1·
          12 days ago

          From the river to the sea literally means destroying Israel. Gaza is 99% Sunni Muslim, wtf do you think happens to minorities there?

      • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
        5·
        12 days ago

        I don’t think anyone’s advocating for anyone’s death I think that’s the point they’re advocating for no death.

        If advocating to stop a war makes you a Nazi them I’m sorry, but I’m a Nazi. Although that doesn’t really gel with their whole ethos they have historically demonstrated, so I am suspicious.

        • throwyourway@sh.itjust.works
          1·
          11 days ago

          See my comment: https://sh.itjust.works/comment/11441248. Yes, people (protest organizers) are advocating publicly for the death of Israelis.

          If someone in Nazi Germany said “I’m just participating in Nazi rallies because they’re making the country run better”, that still doesn’t absolve them of blame for amplifying Nazi voices. Same for these protests - if you participate in these protests, you’re responsible for choosing to participate in a call for violence and amplifying their voices.

        • Throwaway@lemm.ee
          1·
          12 days ago

          No, theres plenty. Anyone is “anti-zion” is dogwhistling for another holocaust

    • bastonia@lemmy.ml
      1·
      11 days ago

      Brother we’ve got South Asian renting appartments to their own race in several of the cities in my country and creating gangs to steal cars. Yeah I don’t like your melting pot thing

    • olutukko@lemmy.world
      37·
      12 days ago

      my ended by me growing up. in my country small towns and villages had pretty much no foreigners when I was child so racism was pretty normal. mostly just really offensive jokes and racial slurs with no though give to them. so it was pretty easy for all that shit catch in to you. when I grew up a bit and started hangik out in the closest city I quickly stopped all of that shit. I was never racist by heart or hateful towards minorities but all that joking and slurring was so normalized that I didn’t really give it a thought until I actually started thinking independently.

      I feel sad towards some of the people I used to know who are now young adults and still live there doing the same bullshit and being actually racists

      • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
        11·
        12 days ago

        That is what it was like in the UK in the 1950s and 1960s. Unless you lived in one of the major cities,which was like four cities at the time, you didn’t really see anyone who wasn’t Caucasian.

        It wasn’t racism, it was ignorance.

        • sparkle@lemm.ee
          9·
          11 days ago

          Racism doesn’t have to be malicious. It is often caused by ignorance

      • Echo Dot@feddit.uk
        3·
        12 days ago

        I did have one once. Unfortunately I didn’t measure my pre and post racism levels so I’m not sure if it helped or not. Also it was made by a large overweight man so perhaps it didn’t have the full effect.

      • THCDenton@lemmy.world
        1·
        10 days ago

        Dude school is rough. By the time I got out I was racist af. Took a long time to work through that shit.

    • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
      1·
      11 days ago

      I had friends growing up from various races, my wife is from another race, and I work with other races. I still catch myself sometimes not treating people equally. It’s really easy to prefer someone that looks like me over someone who doesn’t.

        • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
          2·
          11 days ago

          Yeah, that’s apparently the prevailing opinion, hence why I wrote the last two sentences.

          Don’t assume you’re “not racist” just because you treat some people well. It’s really easy to treat people differently just based on appearances, so watch yourselves. I assume I’m better than most because I get angry a lot at stupid stuff I overhear, but then my wife catches me saying something stupid sometimes. Nobody’s perfect.

          • stebo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
            1·
            10 days ago

            Sorry maybe I misinterpreted your comment. Treating someone differently just because they don’t look like you just sounds pretty strange to me…

            • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works
              1·
              10 days ago

              It’s subconscious.

              I work with people from a variety of countries, and I naturally gravitate toward people from my own. We share the same cultural background, have the same accent, and have similar skin tones. So I go out of my way to correct that.

              I’m a manager, so when I look at promotions, I have to take a minute to write down the pros/cons to justify a promotion to help counter that bias. I also try to spend more time (lunches, water-cooler type discussions, etc) with those who are different from me as well, otherwise I’d naturally cluster with those who are more similar to me. I notice it in the people from other cultures as well, they tend to cluster with those that are similar to them as well, so hopefully me being proactive encourages them to reciprocate.

              At least that’s how I see it, and it seems to be working out alright.

    • Dr. Wesker@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
      26·
      12 days ago

      Well, racism is completely irrational from a scientific point of view

      Sociology would suggest otherwise. Xenophobia doesn’t just exist without reason. It’s just not the future we want to strive toward, in regard to human evolution.

      EDIT: removed some unnecessary snark

        • Dr. Wesker@lemmy.sdf.orgEnglish
          13·
          12 days ago

          Or more likely, say you don’t have time for this and scamper off

          I considered an earnest response, until you tried to pull this little bit of manipulation. Instead I’ll just block you and scamper off.

        • Lemminary@lemmy.world
          14·
          12 days ago

          atheists are too narcissistic

          Do you mean arrogant? Because I don’t think we’re narcissistic anymore than we’re self-assured

          I’m not gonna try to convince you to change your mind, but I will say that a lot of us atheists hold similar beliefs in a strict sense within the scientific framework that makes us agnostics with every unknown. I think you’ve heard of people saying sarcastically that they’re agnostic of the Easter Bunny or Santa Claus, right?

          In a practical sense we simply don’t pretend that we need absolute certainty with an omniscient-level of understanding to read between the lines of the reality that’s right in front of us. Take that as narcissism if you must, but there’s no reason to be conflate being self-assured with a sweeping personality trait

          E: Also, sorry in advance for typing like an obnoxious atheist

            • Sentrovasi@kbin.social
              9·
              12 days ago

              I mean, you literally called the guy stupid and criticised the post for a “complete lack of logic”: I agree with the other people that you write incredibly obnoxiously, especially if that’s what you regard as “polite”. Unfortunately claims of rationality can go hand-in-hand with a pseudo-intellectualism that is really grating when done in earnest.

              Maybe rather than consider everyone else racist, you might do a bit of self-reflection and consider why people who clearly acknowledge that the main post is racist (see every other upvoted comment) still consider your post worse than the racism you’re criticising.

                • Sentrovasi@kbin.social
                  3·
                  11 days ago

                  I think you fail to understand that a lot of the people replying to you are solely replying because of your tone. You’re not winning any argument against anyone because all they’re telling you is that you’re obnoxious. You can’t spin that into a win over racist people because you need to recognise that people can agree with you and still treat you with hostility.

                  You’re not standing up for anything by being volatile. The only reason why I’m even engaging with you on this is because of your original assumption that people who are making fun of the way you post must clearly be racists. If you can now agree that this is not substantively what they are talking about, and you are okay with that, then both of us can do without your moral grandstanding over how justified you are in doing this.

                  I just wanted to make sure you understood why people are treating you poorly, and will continue to treat you poorly into the future. These are not going to just be people who disagree with you. These will include people who agree, but think you’re a real piece of shit.

                  Nobody’s going to want to answer your “direct questions” or engage with your “assertions” (I’m leaving out “patience” because implicit in the idea of patience is manner, in which tone plays a big part and I still don’t think you see it).

                  Does that mean you “win”? I think maybe everyone will be better off if you go away thinking you do, but no, it really doesn’t.

                  This toxic way of thinking of needing to win conversations is also present in the first part of your anecdote where you claim that people used to “win” by asking you to calm down or stop using certain words. They’re not trying to beat you, they’re trying to engage in discourse that both sides can appreciate. If you literally cannot win an argument without resorting to namecalling or condescension, you really need to rethink the value proposition of your arguments.

                  And if you really think that you’ve won when people no longer want to engage with you, then, like I said before, maybe everyone is better off that way.

        • Lowlee Kun@feddit.de
          4·
          12 days ago

          Agnosticism and atheism are not of the same kind. There exist agnostic or gnostic atheists and there exist agnostic or gnostic theists. From what you write, you are an agnostic atheist: You do not believe in a god, yet you can not be sure that there is none.

        • Zekas@lemmy.world
          1·
          11 days ago

          I don’t, I just think the kind of pseudo-intellectualism this guy was putting out was really typical of them. It’s like vegans, they’re right and insufferable about it.

    • ZILtoid1991@lemmy.world
      5·
      12 days ago

      The greater issue is, racists like to sell their bigotry as rational, all while claim “real racism” is an irrational hatred of other races.

      This way, they can just show a few statistics to justify their bigotry, but claim “anti-white racism” is real racism.