I’m happy you are doing the same, and discussing civilly. It’s the only way we can understand each other. Hopefully the quality of discussion will be better on this platform - I think I had a grand total of three or four legitimate conversations on Reddit over the course of several years, so at least we’re off to a decent start.
And yes, you’re right about the definition of capitalism. The terms capital, ownership, private, and means of production are unfortunately not that clear when people coming from different perspectives have different definitions of all those component parts, so I was trying to phrase a bit of my perspective of it in less ideologically-loaded terms.
It’s not surprising you’d feel that way about anarcho-capitalism if you believe money is evil. I think money is man’s greatest invention, the foundation of peaceful cooperation, and primarily good.
I know you already touched on it, but could you explain in more detail why you think money is inherently evil? My view is - there are a very limited number of ways people can interact with each other to obtain things they need or don’t have. If you wish to obtain something from someone else, the fundamental options are trade, beg, steal, or enslave. Outside of reshaping the nature of man into one of complete selflessness, I think the only consistently good option there is trade - which money enables us to do very efficiently. That’s probably already a lot to unpack, but I’d like to hear your thoughts.
It might be easier to describe why money causes problems by contrasting with an alternative.
A simpler society could enjoy socialising and bartering for trade.
A simpler society could freely give what they make and refuse to help people that don’t contribute.
A complex society could run computer models to automate and simplify advanced logistics, while still giving everyone personal control within reason.
A complex society could break down into much smaller communities and democratically decide allocations of work, with minor threats of authoritarian interactions.
Money can absolutely help start and simplify trade, and in the early days it was likely beneficial. Money these days though, has become a religion of sort, where people don’t know how things interact other than monetary value. They don’t get the benefits of social interactions through the hardships of barter, they can detach socially like a billionaire can, and even buy friends and status, charity orgs and can ultimately manipulate so much of their lives, that they destroy aspects of themselves with it.
There are tons of reasons why the USD is toilet paper for example. It used to be money, and now its currency. That change slipped past most peoples awareness because of how complex this system is. Corruption through excessive complexity. Secret doubling of USDs over the last 4 or so years wouldn’t even be known by a quarter of the people here.
Bonus trump projection quote from twitter. iirc “The Chinese yuan has been weaponized to hyper-inflate at the pull of a trigger, invalidating their debts”
I think simple trade and letting go of a complex life is fun and enriching. We as kids will clean up for fun, until the first time we are forced to :P society is the same. Id just fix the pothole if it was a dirt road. Bit harder these days as id probably break something by putting dirt onto a bitumen road. I want to work a bit in many fields, but under this current system i have to “win” a job and abuse myself in the process, just to be a slave under totalitarian workplaces.
Now I have a question for you. How do you feel about companies being the most totalitarian aspect of our lives?
We show up or get fired.
We need a doctor note or cant have a day off/get fired.
We dress and act how directed or get fired.
We work when told, for as long as told or get fired.
Now all this in combination with most other work places being just as bad, and poor social safety nets. You realistically have to submit or die. I take their control as threats against my life, no different than slavery. We do have some options, but they are really bad most of the time. Nothing can really allow an average person without luck to break free of cycles of poverty and submission to totalitarian businesses.
Also, we spend most of our lives realistically tied to, or at work. The freedoms I lose from work exceed the freedoms I lose through direct govt action.
Agreed on USD (or any government currency for that matter) being basically toilet paper. Real money is historically a physical commodity, and it’s perversion here is a function of the State. It’s nothing new, even kings in the past would debase their currency by literally shaving coins to be smaller and making more for them to spend themselves. The problem here again is the State, but I guess you probably don’t need convincing of their shortcomings, being an anarchist yourself.
I think this view of barter is a bit romanticized, and I’m not sure you are fully accounting for what a barter society can sustain. Complex production processes are the result of many intermediate steps throughout which prices in terms of a single unit of account are necessary to function. For example, computers cannot be produced in a barter society. It’s actually impossible, and that’s true of even the most seemingly simple goods. I recommend a short essay called “I, Pencil” by Leonard Reed which demonstrates this idea using a #2 pencil. Considering the hardships barter introduces, I’m actually surprised a pacifist would advocate for it. The more difficult it is for a person to get what they need to survive, the more likely it is they become desperate and violent.
I don’t think it’s possible to buy friends. Money can buy a lot, but friendship, love, and happiness remain outside its purview. You can perhaps buy the appearance of friends, but that’s a sad thing to do.
I don’t think a job is totalitarian at all. I know it’s easy to take for granted the infrastructure that we have in an industrialized society, but work is necessary to live. If it didn’t exist, you would have to procure food, shelter, and clothing on your own and then nature would be oppressing you. Work is just a fact of life, and at least we have the option to go somewhere for half a day and procure everything we need to survive and more. Obviously, some jobs are better than others, and you do actually have the option of making up your own job. You just have to provide something people are voluntarily willing to pay you for, because whatever it is you would like to do that day may not actually provide value to anyone else. Whether it does or not is revealed to you through the actions of others when they choose to give you their resources in exchange for what you provide. A job simplifies this difficulty by allowing otherwise non-entrepreneurial people to engage in productive activity (that is demonstrably valuable) without the risk of loss inherent in trying to do this on your own.
What I find to be oppressive is a third party inserting itself into these interactions and demanding a cut. Day after day, every time I would like to make an exchange, they are collecting their tribute.
Thank you for providing your perspective. I really do recommend reading some economics texts. The best work is Man, Economy, and State by Murray Rothbard which is a beast of a book, but I understand Choice by Bob Murphy is easier to digest. It seems to me we have a similar mindset - in that we want people to be better off and especially hate war. Best of luck to you, friend
I’m happy you are doing the same, and discussing civilly. It’s the only way we can understand each other. Hopefully the quality of discussion will be better on this platform - I think I had a grand total of three or four legitimate conversations on Reddit over the course of several years, so at least we’re off to a decent start.
And yes, you’re right about the definition of capitalism. The terms capital, ownership, private, and means of production are unfortunately not that clear when people coming from different perspectives have different definitions of all those component parts, so I was trying to phrase a bit of my perspective of it in less ideologically-loaded terms.
It’s not surprising you’d feel that way about anarcho-capitalism if you believe money is evil. I think money is man’s greatest invention, the foundation of peaceful cooperation, and primarily good.
I know you already touched on it, but could you explain in more detail why you think money is inherently evil? My view is - there are a very limited number of ways people can interact with each other to obtain things they need or don’t have. If you wish to obtain something from someone else, the fundamental options are trade, beg, steal, or enslave. Outside of reshaping the nature of man into one of complete selflessness, I think the only consistently good option there is trade - which money enables us to do very efficiently. That’s probably already a lot to unpack, but I’d like to hear your thoughts.
It might be easier to describe why money causes problems by contrasting with an alternative.
Money can absolutely help start and simplify trade, and in the early days it was likely beneficial. Money these days though, has become a religion of sort, where people don’t know how things interact other than monetary value. They don’t get the benefits of social interactions through the hardships of barter, they can detach socially like a billionaire can, and even buy friends and status, charity orgs and can ultimately manipulate so much of their lives, that they destroy aspects of themselves with it.
There are tons of reasons why the USD is toilet paper for example. It used to be money, and now its currency. That change slipped past most peoples awareness because of how complex this system is. Corruption through excessive complexity. Secret doubling of USDs over the last 4 or so years wouldn’t even be known by a quarter of the people here.
Bonus trump projection quote from twitter. iirc “The Chinese yuan has been weaponized to hyper-inflate at the pull of a trigger, invalidating their debts”
I think simple trade and letting go of a complex life is fun and enriching. We as kids will clean up for fun, until the first time we are forced to :P society is the same. Id just fix the pothole if it was a dirt road. Bit harder these days as id probably break something by putting dirt onto a bitumen road. I want to work a bit in many fields, but under this current system i have to “win” a job and abuse myself in the process, just to be a slave under totalitarian workplaces.
Now I have a question for you. How do you feel about companies being the most totalitarian aspect of our lives?
Now all this in combination with most other work places being just as bad, and poor social safety nets. You realistically have to submit or die. I take their control as threats against my life, no different than slavery. We do have some options, but they are really bad most of the time. Nothing can really allow an average person without luck to break free of cycles of poverty and submission to totalitarian businesses.
Also, we spend most of our lives realistically tied to, or at work. The freedoms I lose from work exceed the freedoms I lose through direct govt action.
Long reply, excuse the mess.
Agreed on USD (or any government currency for that matter) being basically toilet paper. Real money is historically a physical commodity, and it’s perversion here is a function of the State. It’s nothing new, even kings in the past would debase their currency by literally shaving coins to be smaller and making more for them to spend themselves. The problem here again is the State, but I guess you probably don’t need convincing of their shortcomings, being an anarchist yourself.
I think this view of barter is a bit romanticized, and I’m not sure you are fully accounting for what a barter society can sustain. Complex production processes are the result of many intermediate steps throughout which prices in terms of a single unit of account are necessary to function. For example, computers cannot be produced in a barter society. It’s actually impossible, and that’s true of even the most seemingly simple goods. I recommend a short essay called “I, Pencil” by Leonard Reed which demonstrates this idea using a #2 pencil. Considering the hardships barter introduces, I’m actually surprised a pacifist would advocate for it. The more difficult it is for a person to get what they need to survive, the more likely it is they become desperate and violent.
I don’t think it’s possible to buy friends. Money can buy a lot, but friendship, love, and happiness remain outside its purview. You can perhaps buy the appearance of friends, but that’s a sad thing to do.
I don’t think a job is totalitarian at all. I know it’s easy to take for granted the infrastructure that we have in an industrialized society, but work is necessary to live. If it didn’t exist, you would have to procure food, shelter, and clothing on your own and then nature would be oppressing you. Work is just a fact of life, and at least we have the option to go somewhere for half a day and procure everything we need to survive and more. Obviously, some jobs are better than others, and you do actually have the option of making up your own job. You just have to provide something people are voluntarily willing to pay you for, because whatever it is you would like to do that day may not actually provide value to anyone else. Whether it does or not is revealed to you through the actions of others when they choose to give you their resources in exchange for what you provide. A job simplifies this difficulty by allowing otherwise non-entrepreneurial people to engage in productive activity (that is demonstrably valuable) without the risk of loss inherent in trying to do this on your own.
What I find to be oppressive is a third party inserting itself into these interactions and demanding a cut. Day after day, every time I would like to make an exchange, they are collecting their tribute.
Thank you for providing your perspective. I really do recommend reading some economics texts. The best work is Man, Economy, and State by Murray Rothbard which is a beast of a book, but I understand Choice by Bob Murphy is easier to digest. It seems to me we have a similar mindset - in that we want people to be better off and especially hate war. Best of luck to you, friend