• @irmoz
    link
    fedilink
    166 months ago

    If you support capitalism, then yes, you defend billionaires.

      • @irmoz
        link
        fedilink
        14
        edit-2
        6 months ago

        So, you support a system that inherently creates an upper class of obscenely rich people, yet are opposed to those people?

        A system set up to enrich the owner of a business, while its workers lose out, creates exactly the people you claim not to defend.

        • No, I’m not opposed to them… I just don’t support them. They can support themselves, and I can support myself just fine. I make more money from them than I would without them, and they make money from me they wouldn’t have otherwise had my skillset to access easily.

          I’ve never been forced to take any job… I just manage my skillset in such a way that makes it both rare and valuable. I’ve worn many hats over the years, and I just play the game instead of bitching about the rules Worked out great for me and my family so far. I’ll even have some to leave my kids so they don’t have as hard of a time reaching even higher than I have. That’s the whole point, for me: make my kids’ life better than mine, and I’ve done that so far.

          • @irmoz
            link
            fedilink
            3
            edit-2
            6 months ago

            No, I’m not opposed to them… I just don’t support them.

            It doesn’t work like that. They are in power, and by not opposing them, you consent to their continued power.

            I make more money from them than I would without them,

            That isn’t even close to true. Capitalist extraction of surplus value is exactly how they make their profits. If they paid you the value you made them, they wouldn’t have a profit. If they weren’t there to extract that value, you and your fellow workers would make more - it’s basic mathematics.

            and they make money from me they wouldn’t have otherwise had my skillset to access easily.

            This part is true, yes.

            I’ve never been forced to take any job…

            So, you’re saying you’re able to retire right now and never work again?

            I just play the game instead of bitching about the rules

            That’s a slave mindset.

            That’s the whole point, for me: make my kids’ life better than mine, and I’ve done that so far.

            That’s cool you can think that small and that selfishly. Others, however, realise you could be living even better, and everyone else, including those with nothing, could have that standard of living, too, if we stop being complacent with mere crumbs.

            That’s what you have. Mere crumbs of luxury. It’s great that you’re not on the street, but that is an incredibly low standard to have.

              • @irmoz
                link
                fedilink
                2
                edit-2
                6 months ago

                Just because you don’t agree doesn’t make it any less true. How do you refute it? It’s a basic mathematical truth. It’s literally impossible for a capitalist to pay you the value you brought them, without them going broke.

                • @huge_clock@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  16 months ago

                  It’s not that i don’t agree ona subjective level, it’s that surplus value’s axioms don’t hold true, which makes it bad at explaining economic phenomenon and even worse at making predictions. If a commodity’s value was derived from how much labour went into it, then commodities that had more imbued labour would be inherently more expensive, but this is not the case in reality. Commodities that are easily produced with very little labour per unit (for example a hand-woven basket) can sell for a very low price, whereas a commodity that doesn’t have much labour per unit at all (for example an app downloaded from an online store) can have a high price.

                  Similarly surplus value assumes that the difference in price between the exchange value of a commodity and the labour value of its inputs are due to exploitation, but this ignores other factors of production such as land and capital. Surplus value fails to account for the very common phenomenon of capitalists starting some venture, paying employees a salary but running into some issue or another, watching the value of their stock fall to zero and declaring bankruptcy. In such cases how could you claim there was any surplus value at all?

                  • @irmoz
                    link
                    fedilink
                    1
                    edit-2
                    6 months ago

                    So, surplus value doesn’t exist, simply because some capitalists can… fail to extract it?

                    Listen buddy, a few people being bad at their job doesn’t mean the job doesn’t exist.

                    I don’t think you know what surplus value is. It’s the portion of the value that you make for the business that doesn’t go to you, but to the owner.

                    Do you also notice that I said “without going broke” and your example includes going broke?

              • @OurToothbrush@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                1
                edit-2
                6 months ago

                Read: “I only subscribe to the economics of the oppressor class. If they refuse to accept a basic mathematical truth that implies bad things about them, so do I!”

        • @SneakyThunder@sh.itjust.works
          link
          fedilink
          36 months ago

          Markets are nothing more than voluntary association. Most, if not every “obscenely rich” person got this rich because of govt interference (lobbying, govt sanctioned monopoly, corporate welfare, subsidies, etc.)

          “Organic” market economy would be beneficial to everyone

    • @Flumsy@feddit.de
      link
      fedilink
      36 months ago

      If that were the case (which it isnt) I dont see a problem defending billionaires (and on the side also everybody’s freedom and justice)…

      • @irmoz
        link
        fedilink
        86 months ago

        You can’t defend billionaires and justice at the same time

            • @Flumsy@feddit.de
              link
              fedilink
              56 months ago

              Fairness is subjective. To me it means: everyone is free to do what they like WITHOUT invading anybody elses freedom; if a person performs well, they should be rewarded well; everyone should have the same initial possibilities in life.

              The version of capitalism I was talking about is capitalism with a regulated market. Basic needs should be covered (except if you refuse to contributr anything at all). Im pretty happy with the “social market economy” in Germany where I currently live.

              • @irmoz
                link
                fedilink
                5
                edit-2
                6 months ago

                everyone is free to do what they like WITHOUT invading anybody elses freedom

                But how am I gonna get someone to work for me without invading their freedom to choose to do what they want?

                Hell no, man. No one will work at my shop if they’re allowed to do what they want.

                Basic needs should be covered (except if you refuse to contributr anything at all).

                Fuck yeah man! That’s how we do it! That’s what gets people working for me - the threat that not doing so will put ‘em on the street! That’s what I’m talkin’ about!

                • @Flumsy@feddit.de
                  link
                  fedilink
                  36 months ago

                  But how am I gonna get someone to work for me without invading their freedom to choose to do what they want?

                  By offering them something in return…? Money for example, from which one can buy nice things.

                  That’s how we do it! That’s what gets people working for me - the threat that not doing so will put 'em on the street!

                  Not contributing anything at all wont work in any system or sosciety. Or in what system can I lay in bed all day and get everything I need for free?

                  • @irmoz
                    link
                    fedilink
                    36 months ago

                    By offering them something in return…? Money for example, from which one can buy nice things.

                    Who says I should do that? It’s my prerogative to do what I can to make money. Don’t try and regulate my ambition, you totalitarian communist.

                    Not contributing anything at all wont work in any system or sosciety. Or in what system can I lay in bed all day and get everything I need for free?

                    Absolutely nowhere, I say! Only people with gumption deserve to live!