• @irmoz
    link
    fedilink
    2
    edit-2
    6 months ago

    Just because you don’t agree doesn’t make it any less true. How do you refute it? It’s a basic mathematical truth. It’s literally impossible for a capitalist to pay you the value you brought them, without them going broke.

    • @huge_clock@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      16 months ago

      It’s not that i don’t agree ona subjective level, it’s that surplus value’s axioms don’t hold true, which makes it bad at explaining economic phenomenon and even worse at making predictions. If a commodity’s value was derived from how much labour went into it, then commodities that had more imbued labour would be inherently more expensive, but this is not the case in reality. Commodities that are easily produced with very little labour per unit (for example a hand-woven basket) can sell for a very low price, whereas a commodity that doesn’t have much labour per unit at all (for example an app downloaded from an online store) can have a high price.

      Similarly surplus value assumes that the difference in price between the exchange value of a commodity and the labour value of its inputs are due to exploitation, but this ignores other factors of production such as land and capital. Surplus value fails to account for the very common phenomenon of capitalists starting some venture, paying employees a salary but running into some issue or another, watching the value of their stock fall to zero and declaring bankruptcy. In such cases how could you claim there was any surplus value at all?

      • @irmoz
        link
        fedilink
        1
        edit-2
        6 months ago

        So, surplus value doesn’t exist, simply because some capitalists can… fail to extract it?

        Listen buddy, a few people being bad at their job doesn’t mean the job doesn’t exist.

        I don’t think you know what surplus value is. It’s the portion of the value that you make for the business that doesn’t go to you, but to the owner.

        Do you also notice that I said “without going broke” and your example includes going broke?

        • @huge_clock@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          1
          edit-2
          6 months ago

          Right, but the owner brings something to the table: capital. That capital is then risked. Don’t you think that capital owners should be compensated for providing the resources that is used in the production of commodities?

          Ordinary people who labour save their money. Are they not allowed to invest that money after they earn it? What are we supposed to do with the money that we save up that’s not used for consumption?

          • @irmoz
            link
            fedilink
            1
            edit-2
            6 months ago

            It’s risky to capture a slave. Are risks always entitled to rewards?

            The profit generated by the workers belongs to the workers. They made it. The owner didn’t. They needed the workers to make it. The owners aren’t “providing” the resources - they’re gatekeeping them, so that usage only happens under the condition that it benefits the owner.

            Also, to be quite honest, it’s even unfair to the owner. They shouldn’t have to risk it alone. It should be a joint venture from the start. These risks should be undertaken together, with all as co-owners.

            People are entitled their basic needs on the basis of being human. And all should have social ownership of the economy in general, with no individual or group having sole ownership and thus being the only ones to profit from it.

            • @huge_clock@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              16 months ago

              It’s a double coincidence of wants. The workers aren’t able to provide any of the equipment or capital for the business. They would also rather have a steady predictable paycheque rather than jointly own a risky venture. Meanwhile the investor has capital they are willing to risk and are able to provide a steady source of income. The workers can’t make profit on their own without the capital.

              • @irmoz
                link
                fedilink
                1
                edit-2
                6 months ago

                The workers aren’t able to provide any of the equipment or capital for the business.

                Aw, golly gee, I sure do wonder why they aren’t able to do this.

                Because our system is set up that way!! Capitalism!

                Our system is set up to enrich owners at the expense of workers. Simple as that.

                • @huge_clock@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  16 months ago

                  Capitalism enables people to become rich yes, but many workers do quite well, amassing large retirement accounts and saving their hard-earned money until they too can invest it in a business. The most wealthy and productive societies with the highest wages all of major aspects of their economies controlled by free markets. It’s not a coincidence.

                  • @irmoz
                    link
                    fedilink
                    1
                    edit-2
                    6 months ago

                    I feel like you’re missing the point on purpose.

                    The workers do the work, yet the owner is the one who gets the money.

                    Why?

                    Of course the wealthiest countries have free markets. Why would that be a coincidence? It’s exactly the mechanism I described, but on a global stage. Wealthy people exploit the poorer to become wealthier. Wealthy countries exploit poorer countries to become even wealthier.

                    This is a cycle that will only end with one person becoming the owner of everything, or revolution to end it.