Politics aren’t a game with winners and losers. When fascists rise to power, it’s not like in a soccer game where you say “well, better luck next year”.
People’s lives are on the line, and people might literally die fighting this shit soon. The idea that politics are a gentleman’s gentle verbal jousting club is pretty ridiculous.
About your enlightened centrist take about immigration… It’s never going to appease racists. What you suggest is exactly what France’s UMP and what Macron have done. Look where we are now.
Yeah, I know all about that, they use the " brown immigrants are terrorists" in my country too in order to exploit people’s latent racism.
To have a point you’d have to compare those instances to violence by Europeans against eachother, by being selective you’re feeding a narrative that brown immigrants are more violent than Europeans. That’s already been demonstrated to be false. You’re being manipulated by fascists.
So, even if we assume those 122 attacks were committed by immigrants, how does that compare to violent crimes committed by Europeans themselves? 122 incidents over 9 years is remarkably low for a single demographic. How many bad actors is that per event? How many immigrants are there total and how many committed these crimes?
No ones moving goal posts. Give a ballpark of how many immigrants were involved in those 122 attacks.
You’re making the argument that brown immigrants are more dangerous than Europeans and you’re then trying to exclude all types of violent crime except that labeled terror attacks to obfuscate the reality that immigrants are statistically no more dangerous than Europeans themselves. It’s dishonest.
Even in terms of terrorism, the majority has historically been committed by domestic groups (ex. nationalists, political extremists, separatists etc.), not immigrants. Again, this is very similar to my own country where domestic terrorism is actually the greater threat than that from immigrants.
Rhetorically because this conversation is going to go nowhere. What would need to happen for immigration to actually be an issue?
Because people that tell us low wages (not GDP increase but working class wages for locals), high house prices, and other things people mention like losing culture and crime increasing isn’t an issue. So what would it take for it to be an issue.
A lot of people, usually the rich that own businesses and land and can make money off immigration, say it’s not a problem. I think rather than choosing a side and ignoring the issues people should wonder what would be a bad outcome then looking at things after.
The rich making money off immigration isn’t an issue with the immigrants, it’s that we don’t force companies to pay all their workers the same wage, regardless of status. That’s a regulatory problem, not an immigration problem.
Because people that tell us low wages (not GDP increase but working class wages for locals), high house prices, and other things people mention like losing culture and crime increasing isn’t an issue. So what would it take for it to be an issue.
None of this is related to immigration. Immigrants aren’t raising housing prices. With crime you have to actually prove that that’s immigrants committing more crimes than Europeans and what kind of crime. They call brown immigrants criminals and rapists here too, and it’s simply not true, they commit crimes at the same rate as citizens.
You have to understand that this is a pattern we see over, and over throughout history; when fascists want to seize control they blame immigrants for all of socieyies woes. And they do so only with rhetoric or twisted facts, not the truth.
You never really answered the question though. What would have to happen for immigration to be a problem in your eyes? I’m just trying to get you to open you mind rather than sitting on your team. Look at the situation objectively first.
No its basic supply and demand for both wages and for housing. If you have a limited supply and demand increases prices can only increase. Is supply increases and demand the same wages go down.
Denmark has run the numbers for crime by country of origin which is direct proof. But then places like Sweden also have indirect proof like now having to keep a record of grenade attacks when they didn’t 20+ years ago.
It’s a real wonder why people with less possibilities can become influenced by crime, regardless of birthplace, and still countries push new residents into those situations
Not bring who in? What’s the deciding factor, precogs evaluating if someone does crime in the future? Not bring people who are born there and already stuck in lower classes. The problems don’t care about immigration, it’s the bourgeoisie waging class warfare.
Well lots of countries have immigration requirements or points based systems. So it is obvious that countries already use means to choose which immigrants it wants.
This just needs expansion. You look at immigrants or children of immigrants that commit more crime than locals or contribute less than locals and you don’t bring them in. Because bringing them in makes the country worse.
It’s obviously an average but that is all immigration requirements are.
If you cant handle a democratic election not going your way, maybe you dont belong in politics.
And maybe you shouldve curbed immigration instead of making it a wedge issue, and only having the far right party be for curbing it. Just a thought
Politics aren’t a game with winners and losers. When fascists rise to power, it’s not like in a soccer game where you say “well, better luck next year”.
People’s lives are on the line, and people might literally die fighting this shit soon. The idea that politics are a gentleman’s gentle verbal jousting club is pretty ridiculous.
About your enlightened centrist take about immigration… It’s never going to appease racists. What you suggest is exactly what France’s UMP and what Macron have done. Look where we are now.
Whipping up fear about brown immigrants is what the right does when there is no wedge issue.
I thought that was a Mexican border only thing, turns out European leaders do the same shitty fear monger
I guarantee every coastie wants to rescue live folks, color doesn’t matter in the sea. It’s the politicians saying no to human lives
Pretty easy to do after 9/11, Nice, Vienna(2021), Dresden(2021), the list goes on. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism_in_Europe
When multiple groups have declared Jihad against the west, a little more caution should be exercised.
Remember, immigrating is not a right.
Yeah, I know all about that, they use the " brown immigrants are terrorists" in my country too in order to exploit people’s latent racism.
To have a point you’d have to compare those instances to violence by Europeans against eachother, by being selective you’re feeding a narrative that brown immigrants are more violent than Europeans. That’s already been demonstrated to be false. You’re being manipulated by fascists.
Alright, name the 122 terrorist attacks made by Europeans since 2015. Ill wait.
So, even if we assume those 122 attacks were committed by immigrants, how does that compare to violent crimes committed by Europeans themselves? 122 incidents over 9 years is remarkably low for a single demographic. How many bad actors is that per event? How many immigrants are there total and how many committed these crimes?
It’s racist fear mongering.
I said terrorist attacks, not violent crimes. Dont move the goal posts
No ones moving goal posts. Give a ballpark of how many immigrants were involved in those 122 attacks.
You’re making the argument that brown immigrants are more dangerous than Europeans and you’re then trying to exclude all types of violent crime except that labeled terror attacks to obfuscate the reality that immigrants are statistically no more dangerous than Europeans themselves. It’s dishonest.
Even in terms of terrorism, the majority has historically been committed by domestic groups (ex. nationalists, political extremists, separatists etc.), not immigrants. Again, this is very similar to my own country where domestic terrorism is actually the greater threat than that from immigrants.
Okay, you want to move the goal posts. Tell me, per capita, who commits more violent crime? Muslims or non-muslims?
Removed by mod
Or the everyone is just ignoring the issue.
Rhetorically because this conversation is going to go nowhere. What would need to happen for immigration to actually be an issue?
Because people that tell us low wages (not GDP increase but working class wages for locals), high house prices, and other things people mention like losing culture and crime increasing isn’t an issue. So what would it take for it to be an issue.
A lot of people, usually the rich that own businesses and land and can make money off immigration, say it’s not a problem. I think rather than choosing a side and ignoring the issues people should wonder what would be a bad outcome then looking at things after.
The rich making money off immigration isn’t an issue with the immigrants, it’s that we don’t force companies to pay all their workers the same wage, regardless of status. That’s a regulatory problem, not an immigration problem.
None of this is related to immigration. Immigrants aren’t raising housing prices. With crime you have to actually prove that that’s immigrants committing more crimes than Europeans and what kind of crime. They call brown immigrants criminals and rapists here too, and it’s simply not true, they commit crimes at the same rate as citizens.
You have to understand that this is a pattern we see over, and over throughout history; when fascists want to seize control they blame immigrants for all of socieyies woes. And they do so only with rhetoric or twisted facts, not the truth.
You never really answered the question though. What would have to happen for immigration to be a problem in your eyes? I’m just trying to get you to open you mind rather than sitting on your team. Look at the situation objectively first.
No its basic supply and demand for both wages and for housing. If you have a limited supply and demand increases prices can only increase. Is supply increases and demand the same wages go down.
Denmark has run the numbers for crime by country of origin which is direct proof. But then places like Sweden also have indirect proof like now having to keep a record of grenade attacks when they didn’t 20+ years ago.
It’s a real wonder why people with less possibilities can become influenced by crime, regardless of birthplace, and still countries push new residents into those situations
You mean bringing in people like that.
A country could you know. Not bring them in. Issue is solved then.
There is so much in this sentence to unpack im not sure where to begin.
Are you saying they magically become different people once they are in the country?
A country can choose to let that person in or not.
Lock your door and never go out.
What a solution!
Not bring who in? What’s the deciding factor, precogs evaluating if someone does crime in the future? Not bring people who are born there and already stuck in lower classes. The problems don’t care about immigration, it’s the bourgeoisie waging class warfare.
Just let less immigrants in. No need for a pre-cog.
Well lots of countries have immigration requirements or points based systems. So it is obvious that countries already use means to choose which immigrants it wants.
This just needs expansion. You look at immigrants or children of immigrants that commit more crime than locals or contribute less than locals and you don’t bring them in. Because bringing them in makes the country worse.
It’s obviously an average but that is all immigration requirements are.