With more people joining Lemmy and other decentralised networks there is a growing shift to the common misogyny and sexism we find on other social media networks (YouTube, Reddit, etc.).
I think it’s pretty obvious that the reason is that there are even less women here than other places online. What are your ideas on how to change that? Or do you feel it is a lost cause?
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How do you know they’re less women here than other places?
Because all communities and topics that have engagement from women on, for example, Reddit are practically dead on Lemmy.
I found it to be similar for the male communities too (askmen, malefashionadvice, etc). There’s a pretty nice balance on Mastodon, so maybe Lemmy needs time?
We can totally work on issues in the meantime too, not saying there isn’t an issue :)
As for the question, I don’t think it’s a lost cause. I’ll write out some ideas in a bit!
Ok so I think that growing the women-oriented communities would follow similar steps to any other community. A big part of that is just communicating the benefits and risks.
Positives:
- backup of existing communities
- more inclusive by including those who left Reddit for privacy/ads/accessibility reasons
- You can actually make an instance owned, funded, moderated, and operated by women
Negatives:
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privacy - You can’t ever delete something on the internet, but it’s even harder with federation. This isn’t a woman specific issue, but it’s one that could affect women more/differently so it’s worth talking about. It’s harder to fight against doxxing, and it’s harder to ensure your account is deleted if you’re trying to fight stalkers. Some of this can be fixed by improving the software, and I’m not clear on what the implications are just yet. But it was worth noting
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Lemmy specific: Moderation tools aren’t strong enough yet. Women-oriented communities might attract trolls.
How to grow the communities
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get in touch with existing community moderators and set up a parallel / sister community setup. Encourage people to post on both, let those moderators moderate on Lemmy. Trust would help a lot in this case
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need more time to think of specific points, but for now other community building ideas would apply too
Thank you for your thoughts!
I want to emphasize this one:
Lemmy specific: Moderation tools aren’t strong enough yet. Women-oriented communities might attract trolls.
I think the Lemmy instance beehaw is predominantly or exclusive led by women and well, when I remember correctly it had to aggressively defederate from multiple bigger instances… Heavy moderation costs time and thereby money. And a huge factor in this is that instances and communities which announce heavy moderation seem to attract that extra truckload of trolls. I don’t want to start a drama discussion here, just to underline that moderation problem.
Oh I didn’t know that about Beehaw, that’s cool to know :)
Yes that makes sense, and I think some Reddit communities tried and couldn’t establish here for that reason (askHistorians). Lemmy needs to make the moderation easier in order for things to work out for everyone
What makes you think women aren’t engaging in topics though? Because they don’t say “I’m a woman and…” in the comments?
I think you’d be surprised.
(Edit. Oh I get it, because we’re not engaging in your topics. Gotcha)
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Example 1, ☝️ this mfer
“Just act like a man and you won’t be attacked, idiot!!! And do not post or engage in discussions about women or the issues they face!!! You’re making yourself a target by being a woman, you moron!!!”
🤡
Invite more women to Lemmy? Why? So they can be forced to deal with shit like this if they try to discuss women’s issues? No fucking thank you.
I added some more thoughts now :)
Let’s start with a list of women communities on Lemmy to identify mods to get in touch with. I haven’t ventured out far from this instance, so I unfortunately don’t know of any on other instances.
What do you mean with parallel setup? Posts being posted to one automatically appearing on another community?
This has been on my mind this evening and I actually just made a post on !fediverse@lemmy.world with some communities!
@ParsnipWitch@feddit.de I hope that was ok, and I can unlink this post if you prefer
I think ‘sister community’ or “Official Lemmy community for ____” might give a better idea of what I was thinking of. It’s something that I’ve been working on with other mods for c/UBC (my university) and c/Medicine (+ a few others that are still in the works), where communities have the same mods and rules. So the process would include some or all of the following:
- Someone gets in touch with the mods in both communities (ex. !medicine@mander.xyz and reddit.com/r/medicine)
- Rules are updated for consistent moderation
- Mods from one community (ex. Reddit) are added as mods on the other (ex. Lemmy)
- Each community links to the other in the sidebar, and encourages people to post to both. Large events, censuses, rule changes, etc. could be run in both communities at once
I’ve played with the idea of automating posts, but people have concerns about deletion, moderation (ex. what happens if something is removed from one), spam.
Good idea. I went off reddit completely as the enshittification got too bad, but returning occasionally to point out there’s a sister community on reddit might be something worthwhile. I hadn’t realized you were talking subreddits, I thought you were just thinking about connecting between lemmy communities for women.
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Last time I saw a female-centric issue brought up on Lemmy, folks were very openly hostile. It also became a discussion of “well, what about men?? Men also experience this issue!!!” while frothing at the mouth (search up “women-only Lyft” to see the hostility + comments completely missing the point).
Sure, you need to be a bit more tech-saavy to use Lemmy, but the spaces & discussion here meant for women are often invaded by unfriendly folk and people who barge in to joke about/make light of the things that are being discussed.
Yes, that’s actually one of the topics I was thinking about when I made this post!
There are also some bigger communities still completely missing from Lemmy that I think should have a voice on this platform (for example r/blackladies). And the Lemmy pendant of “Witches VS Patriarchy” only has 15 subscribers. ╮(￣ω￣;)╭
There is witchy memes, which is admittedly not the same as wvp but still a nice community
Bring back SRS! I guess SLS
I haven’t seen anywhere near as much misogyny and sexism here as I have on Reddit. I haven’t really seen any at all, but maybe it’s just the communities that I have been reading.
People need to be aware that Lemmy exists for them to start using it. Tell your friends about it, send them links to communities or posts that they would be interested in, etc… Unfortunately, the most active communities on Lemmy seem to be news and tech related. News can be shared elsewhere and tech is still something that we’re a small minority in. We need to stop lurking and start posting more if we want to make this place more attractive.
It’s not all news and tech! Lemmy hosts the most extensive collection of Star Trek memes I have ever seen on https://startrek.website/c/risa
It’s because we are in deep tech/programming territory here where you traditionally find less women. I do think it is shifting a lot recently, and find Lemmy fairly mild in terms of misogyny. But then I also actively avoid communities where dudebros tend to flock and be all rational and such.
Of course there’s always more work to do. More women mods, more women led communities, as others have said. Maybe downvoting and reporting instead of blocking sexists. Calling people out on their shit, making women feel protected.
I think in part this topic is also because I try to encourage more women to be active in techy places. I am always motivated to think about ways on how to bring more diverse people into tech hobbies like programming. It’s what I do at university with activities for IT newbies.
And I got the impression that especially women, LGBTQ and minority people feel more safe to try out these stuff when the instructors are women and it seems to have a low barrier. There is a lot of “I am too dumb for this” from internalized stereotypes and I think that’s going on with the Fediverse as well.
I hear you. I have always been doing tech stuff (from DIY to IT) as a hobby, and it has been frustrating to be surrounded by guys only. And I only got into the DIY because I was interested and had male friends who weren’t dismissive. I built my first tiny house with 18. I’ve been flying racing drones. At the same time, falling back into ‘I can’t really’ happens to me really easily, because it’s so very ingrained. That’s why we have to continue struggling, and making a fuss about it, and make spaces where girls and women can experiment with tools and tech, and give them room to get good - because often when boys are present they take the tools and do the thing - maybe even in an attempt to be helpful, but still. I’ve always wanted to organize DIY courses for women, maybe I should go haunt the local school or something.
Nothing is a lost cause if there is interest in improving the situation. Ultimately, content is what makes people join and stay. So existing people need to start new communities and grow them in areas they find interesting.
Mastodon lacks entertainment and politics content because nobody in those areas cared enough about the downsides of centralized platforms to migrate. Lemmy on the other hand is full of entertainment and political content, but everything is tinged with technology aspect.
“Everything is tinged with technology aspect.”
Which is how Reddit was at first, too, no? It took a long time for Reddit to get to its peak (and subsequent fall). I hope Lemmy can get there and I hope I can help!
Same thing with digg.com before it got too popular. huge influx of class clowns type of comments that grew on digg so more people went to Reddit to join more test discussion.
I hope Lemmy doesn’t fall
I think it would be better if there was an option to opt out of appearing in all when you post something. It seems like certain communities/posts get down voted by people finding them in all. And this IMO presents a chilling effect on those communities/posts.
For example another user in this thread mentioned a post about women only ride-sharing and there being hostility towards the concept by men from all.
Women or any other group of people won’t want to join Lemmy if there isn’t spaces that contain content that interests them.
I know, some people downvote(d) every post in the community I mod.
Misogynist posts are also fine, apparently. Like a “Fuck, Marry, Kill” post with three female characters from Star Trek. (Not sure if I am allowed to link to it.) Interim it had over 50 upvotes. And people in the comments seem to participate “in the fun”. It’s great it got downvoted so hard in the end and I am not for banning or deleting such posts per se. It just gives me pause to think that people feel okay to make them in the first place.
Women or any other group of people won’t want to join Lemmy if there isn’t spaces that contain content that interests them.
Definitely. For example there are very few hobby communities that aren’t tech focused. My concern is that hostility will build up more and because of that the communities won’t grow in the first place. And also what is a good way to promote Lemmy to a more diverse group of people.
The optimist in me thinks that Lemmy might be just copying the growth of Reddit. Reddit used to be similar to modern Lemmy (read: just a bunch of programmers/early adopters) but eventually got a broader appeal and tons of hobby communities got popular.
I saw that fmk post on Risa and I was mildly shocked. Even for lulz it’s pretty bottom-of-the-barrel humor
I’m a male who has been managing online communities for more than two decades. I’m not sure what the answer to this issue is. But I’m quite sure it can’t come from men… :D
I’d say, we need women admins of fediverse instances, and more female moderators. The only communities I’m part of that see little to no sexism have one thing in common : they are mostly run by women.
But I’m quite sure it can’t come from men… :D
Less hostility and sexism would help, though. It’s next to impossible to make a women centric topic on Lemmy right now without it being invaded by “What about the men?” and “Our society is misandrist!” folk. If Lemmy communities aren’t careful, they will be invaded by anti-feminist misogynists. The typical fate of online spaces that don’t react to it when it starts. And since the majority of Lemmy mods and admins are men, how is it not their job to tackle it?
I’m not saying it’s not the job of admin men to tackle this issue, it very much is. What I’m saying is I don’t feel they’re good at it, and I don’t believe they will bring the most significant contribution at this level.
In my experience of moderator, sexism in online communities is a typical case of oppression dynamics. Small group of diverse people grows, some new people come in with oppressive opinions that are initially tolerated in the name of free speech. Oppressed group initially reacts, then as those opinions turn into hate speech gradually withdraw themselves. Next thing you know, the diversity is gone and you’re left with a toxic community.
Key to keeping a sane community in my opinion is to react swiftly when sexist opinions are voiced, and to scarify some of the freedom of speech to prevent the hate from settling in. And from what I’ve witnessed in many communities I’ve been part of, countless subreddits I’ve been lurking around, men are just not very good at that. I’m not saying all men, I’m not saying this means they shouldn’t do anything. I’ve been there and I’ve tried my best. I’m sure most male admins and moderators are acting in good faith. But I also feel like the general state of the internet shows that’s not enough. Again : the few communities I engage in where sexism is almost non existent are moderated by women.
Am I wrong? Quite possibly, I believe I’ve been on the internet long enough to make an informed opinion, but I’m also not that bright so… :D
I agree absolutely with what you have written here. This process on how online communities get radicalised, I’ve seen it unfold as well. And it really does seem to follow that pattern.
Memes for example are a good indicator. They are a way for people to (subconsciously?) test the waters, so to speak. They make a joke that is a little bit sexist or racist and it’s very safe for them. Does the post get a lot of upvotes? Well, doesn’t seem too bad if I also sprinkle my sexist and/or racist opinion here an there.
When someone calls me out I can just claim it’s a joke and scream censorship - which is a red flag for many online, especially on Lemmy. No one wants to be an evil fascist oppressor who censors free speech! /s
Why not now create communities where we just share those “fringe humor” memes? And if we are at it, why not also create communities where we share our just-a-little-bit bigoted opinions?
Maybe it is that women moderators put their foot down earlier because it hurts them more, and that’s the way to go. But this could also backfire tremendously when people then start spinning the tale of the evil censorship feminist. Seen that as well…
Agreed. And that’s exactly why I say I don’t know what the answer is. It’s really a tough subject that goes way further than just sexism. It’s really the eternal question of balancing freedoms amongst individuals with conflicting objectives.
We French have a saying : One’s freedom stops where others’ begin. It’s not absolute, there are limits to it. I wish to see something similar being agreed upon in the Fediverse, instead of the American-style libertarianism that’s pushed in some circles of the Internet. But is this realistic? :)
Why are you voicing your opinion then? We won’t be getting any answers from you, Mr. Man
This is the first time I’ve seen twox on all!
The fediverse heavily leans towards men, as does Reddit opposed to TikTok and Instagram where those social media apps lean towards women. From what I understand men outnumber women 10:1 on the fediverse.
We are still in it’s infancy, the thing is even Reddit used to be this bad when it comes to that. I believe there’s here’s a certain point of critical mass that sites like these have to reach before you have a sustaining women population. But as the fediverse grows women focused communities are certain to grow albeit at a slower rate.
With that said keep expectations in check; while there’s no reason women can’t be as involved and active as men are it seems that sites focused on text-based forum discussions has a broader appeal towards males. Don’t understand why that is but it just means that it will lean towards males, so the demographics will always be skewed.
so we need a federated IG and TT, simple :)
You mean like Pixelfed and PeerTube?
yep, making those more appealing to women might be the magic formula
If you think about making them pink with cursive font I’ll turn you into a toad, young feller!
we could have themes and custom fonts though :D
I think that lemmy suffers from being a resource that’s difficult to discover and use relative to commercial services and so more closely resembles the old usenet than something like reddit in terms of user base. I think it’s partly the responsibility of the app developers to make the useful but confusing aspects of a federated system (dozens of communities caled “politics” with most having zero traffic but all showing up on a search for communities) transparent. The low key and sometimes blatant misogyny certainly drives women away, and it’s a factor in everything from ham radio to CS majors.
If I were to look to build a community, I’d establish the infrastructure for one first. That might be building a women-focused instance or it might mean establishing a cadre of women mods who could run subs like 2XC and others in a coordinated fashion with shared ban lists and such. Solidarity and control and setting up a safe space. Then I’d actively recruit from Reddit and from other women’s online communities, and promote AMAs and do community functions. That all means having community organizers, and being able to offer a forum for women in tech, abortion rights, political discussions, and so on.
You can also just wait to see if it grows naturally, but if you want to make sure it happens I think you would be better off seeding it.
I don’t want to say it’s a lost cause… But I’m not sure how to address it either. You’re absolutely right that the casual sexism is rampant here, and to my mind it’s about 50% from less moderation overall and 50% the type of personalities that are willing to seek out less popular and less user friendly services. I left reddit for a reason, but lemmy isn’t nearly as polished. That demographic is always going to skew neckbeardy.
Stick to a small instance with a small witchy vibe. You can get by by looking at local + subbing to only topics that you’re interested in.
Personally I find my current instance + some of the literature instances (literature.cafe) very comfy. I blocked out 196, but that was only because it was big enough that it was drowning out all other discussions.Then I join in on some niche lemmy.world tech topics from time to time.
Hi I’m a woman!
You said “less women,” but I think you meant *fewer women 😉
I recall being subscribed to this subreddit years ago but they banned me for saying something that probably didn’t align with their typical man-hating narrative.
I’m going to switch my settings now and make sure the only things that appear on my front page are that which I’m subscribed to.
You said “less women,” but I think you meant *fewer women 😉
I don’t think you deserve to be banned for being a woman. But I do think you deserve being banned for that comment /s
Sorry, English is not my native language. Is it incorrect to say “less people”?
It is hard to defend against the toxic fedi bros. A lot of them joined only after getting banned from a more mainstream platform for being too toxic.
One possible recommendation, not great but maybe better than nothing: start an invite only women safe space Lemmy server and moderate it yourself, federate with most large instances but be ready to temporarily defederate when your server gets brigaded. Enlist the help of femenists in tech.
Tell me you’re not on beehaw without telling me you’re not on beehaw.
Perhaps you should join beehaw.
Having clear rules, moderating public discussions and blocking individuals yourself that harass you are the first tools for it.
Maybe apply for moderation yourself in places with negative criticism and start weeding out bad behavior yourself?If mods don’t do anything about folks’ bad behavior, then you need to consider, do you want to be a part of a specific community.
Oh! Also creating communities yourself is one option!
