President Vladimir Putin on Friday accused NATO member Poland of having territorial ambitions in the former Soviet Union, and said any aggression against Russia's neighbour and close ally Belarus would be considered an attack on Russia.
I’m not up to snuff on NATO regulations. As I understand it, if a NATO nation gets attacked, the rest of them are obliged to defend, correct? What happens if that nation is “the aggressor”. Like in this situation if Poland were to do a first strike against Belarus or Russia and they respond attacking Poland, is the rest of NATO obliged to help defend Poland?
No, NATO doesn’t interfere if a member starts a war. It’s a defensive treaty. That said, Poland alone wouldn’t be able to do much, and democracies rarely openly declare war.
I had a deployment with Polish soldiers. They are a modern and extremely capable defensive force. It would likely turn into the same thing we’re seeing in Ukraine (smaller force that is well trained and better supplied vs sending a lot of bodies and old tech). I don’t think we’ll ever see a Polish led force invading Belarus or Russia without a massive NATO backing and a lot of foreign units already on the way to support them. Defensively, they will fuck you up. Offensively, they don’t have the man power to go deep into enemy territory.
The Polish have historical grudges with Russia and are chomping at the bit to hurt some Russians. It is probably NATO that is holding them back from sending units to Ukraine
However what if a NATO country starts a war with Belarus, and then Russia attacks the NATO country?
The NATO country would never have initiated a war with Russia, they would have initiated it with Belarus.
Does a NATO country automatically become vulnerable if they have any wars currently ongoing? Because that would mean Russia could have attacked America during the war in Afghanistan and NATO would not have been able to get involved.
The way it works is that the attacked country invokes article 5. If the country does it then other members are obligated to help. If they don’t, they are undermining NATO.
I think putin sending Wagner to Belarus is indeed thinking to force Belarus to attack Poland or a Baltic states and see what happens. Of course that would be simple, it would be Belarus vs NATO, and would end up quickly.
So he is tipping the scale and saying that attacking Belarus will be also attacking Russia, hoping that it will be ignored like two Russian missiles hitting Poland. If it won’t be ignored, then he is just sacrificing Belarus.
As long as an attack happens on NATO territory, it’s considered an act of war. Even if the NATO country is the aggressor. Ideally the aggressing country would be suspended before they could invoke article 5.
Imagine how dangerous it would be if NATO was, instead of a defensive pact, a transnational nuclear military helmed by the world’s foremost genocidal empire that marches across Europe via propaganda and coup d’etats towards it’s ultimate goal of encircling Russia and China. What a cluster fuck that would be? In that reality, if a member state launched a war of aggression NATO would probably support it and continue escalation.
Luckily, we know NATO is a defensive force because it didn’t launch multiple wars of aggression, drop depleted uranium on civilians, and is democratically accountable.
BTW: since lemmy (and obviously lemmygrad) was created by communists. Can you explain to me what’s so communist about Russia that you and others are so fiercely defending? How are they different from that “imperialistic pig” that is the US? Is it because Russia is fascist now?
Looks to me like you never cared about communist ideology, and it was always about supporting Muscovies and totalitarism.
Nobody said Russia is communist, nor is anybody defending Russia here. People are just explaining to you that the reality is more complex than the propaganda narrative you’ve guzzled makes it out to be. The only fascists here are the ones who think that people of Ukraine should be used in a proxy war against Russia by the west. So, maybe stop projecting there.
Said the guy with a thumbnail with big CCCP on his forehead.
Standard bullshit pretending that you care about people, dismissing that Ukrainians are fighting for their right to exist. After the war crimes committed, after Bucha and many other places, after Russia admitted to kidnapping nearly a million of Ukrainian children (textbook definition of genocide), after ICC charges for war crimes.
But ok, please outline exactly what should be the peace agreement, who gets what (don’t skip any details).
And second, please tell me how Russia, will honor that agreement, when it broke every single one going back to 90s, including Budapest Memorandum where it signed that it will respect Ukraine’s borders. The one that it broke in 2003, 2014, 2018 and 2022 (when it decided to go after the rest of Ukraine).
The fact that you made a personal attack followed by a bunch of drivel there that has nothing to do with anything I said is really in character fro you.
@takeda@yogthos I understand where you’re coming from Takeda. But don’t expect rationality from Yogi. He says Ukraine is being “used in a proxy war”. That’s your first hint that he’s a propagandist. Anyone who says the US is helping Ukraine to hurt Russia without mentioning that the ONLY reason the US needs to do so is because Russia has needlessly and baselessly attacked Ukraine, is not trying to speak the truth. Unless Yogi here wants to admit Russia’s attack was the cause? Yogi?
That doesn’t dispute my comment though? If Poland were to attack Belarus and Belarus retaliated with an attack on Polish soil, they could absolutely invoke article 5.
I’m not up to snuff on NATO regulations. As I understand it, if a NATO nation gets attacked, the rest of them are obliged to defend, correct? What happens if that nation is “the aggressor”. Like in this situation if Poland were to do a first strike against Belarus or Russia and they respond attacking Poland, is the rest of NATO obliged to help defend Poland?
No, NATO doesn’t interfere if a member starts a war. It’s a defensive treaty. That said, Poland alone wouldn’t be able to do much, and democracies rarely openly declare war.
I had a deployment with Polish soldiers. They are a modern and extremely capable defensive force. It would likely turn into the same thing we’re seeing in Ukraine (smaller force that is well trained and better supplied vs sending a lot of bodies and old tech). I don’t think we’ll ever see a Polish led force invading Belarus or Russia without a massive NATO backing and a lot of foreign units already on the way to support them. Defensively, they will fuck you up. Offensively, they don’t have the man power to go deep into enemy territory.
The Polish have historical grudges with Russia and are chomping at the bit to hurt some Russians. It is probably NATO that is holding them back from sending units to Ukraine
However what if a NATO country starts a war with Belarus, and then Russia attacks the NATO country?
The NATO country would never have initiated a war with Russia, they would have initiated it with Belarus.
Does a NATO country automatically become vulnerable if they have any wars currently ongoing? Because that would mean Russia could have attacked America during the war in Afghanistan and NATO would not have been able to get involved.
It’s probably a case where Russia could attack Poland’s forces in Belarus but attacking Polish soil would involve article 5.
The way it works is that the attacked country invokes article 5. If the country does it then other members are obligated to help. If they don’t, they are undermining NATO.
Having said that, NATO doesn’t specify how countries supposed to respond. It could be something to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoney_War
I think putin sending Wagner to Belarus is indeed thinking to force Belarus to attack Poland or a Baltic states and see what happens. Of course that would be simple, it would be Belarus vs NATO, and would end up quickly.
So he is tipping the scale and saying that attacking Belarus will be also attacking Russia, hoping that it will be ignored like two Russian missiles hitting Poland. If it won’t be ignored, then he is just sacrificing Belarus.
As long as an attack happens on NATO territory, it’s considered an act of war. Even if the NATO country is the aggressor. Ideally the aggressing country would be suspended before they could invoke article 5.
Imagine how dangerous it would be if NATO was, instead of a defensive pact, a transnational nuclear military helmed by the world’s foremost genocidal empire that marches across Europe via propaganda and coup d’etats towards it’s ultimate goal of encircling Russia and China. What a cluster fuck that would be? In that reality, if a member state launched a war of aggression NATO would probably support it and continue escalation.
Luckily, we know NATO is a defensive force because it didn’t launch multiple wars of aggression, drop depleted uranium on civilians, and is democratically accountable.
Oh lemmygrad is leaking.
Oh reddit is leaking
Yes, it is, badly.
BTW: since lemmy (and obviously lemmygrad) was created by communists. Can you explain to me what’s so communist about Russia that you and others are so fiercely defending? How are they different from that “imperialistic pig” that is the US? Is it because Russia is fascist now?
Looks to me like you never cared about communist ideology, and it was always about supporting Muscovies and totalitarism.
Nobody said Russia is communist, nor is anybody defending Russia here. People are just explaining to you that the reality is more complex than the propaganda narrative you’ve guzzled makes it out to be. The only fascists here are the ones who think that people of Ukraine should be used in a proxy war against Russia by the west. So, maybe stop projecting there.
Said the guy with a thumbnail with big CCCP on his forehead.
Standard bullshit pretending that you care about people, dismissing that Ukrainians are fighting for their right to exist. After the war crimes committed, after Bucha and many other places, after Russia admitted to kidnapping nearly a million of Ukrainian children (textbook definition of genocide), after ICC charges for war crimes.
But ok, please outline exactly what should be the peace agreement, who gets what (don’t skip any details).
And second, please tell me how Russia, will honor that agreement, when it broke every single one going back to 90s, including Budapest Memorandum where it signed that it will respect Ukraine’s borders. The one that it broke in 2003, 2014, 2018 and 2022 (when it decided to go after the rest of Ukraine).
The fact that you made a personal attack followed by a bunch of drivel there that has nothing to do with anything I said is really in character fro you.
@takeda @yogthos I understand where you’re coming from Takeda. But don’t expect rationality from Yogi. He says Ukraine is being “used in a proxy war”. That’s your first hint that he’s a propagandist. Anyone who says the US is helping Ukraine to hurt Russia without mentioning that the ONLY reason the US needs to do so is because Russia has needlessly and baselessly attacked Ukraine, is not trying to speak the truth. Unless Yogi here wants to admit Russia’s attack was the cause? Yogi?
It is so odd seeing so many supposed communists defending the fascist Russian state. Lenin is spinning in his mausoleum.
Respect the thin blue line! Team NATO: World Police!
ITT: “But sometimes, dicks fuck assholes!”
Your comment belies your ignorance of how NATO works.
Enlighten me.
PP in all examples intermixes NATO with US military.
In its history NATO article 5 was invoked only once.
That doesn’t dispute my comment though? If Poland were to attack Belarus and Belarus retaliated with an attack on Polish soil, they could absolutely invoke article 5.
Unless there is a cover up like happened with those Russian missiles that hit Poland.