…and you know which telephone numbers send data to the pager and at which time. That is sufficient to track or identify individuals.
If this is a supply chain attack, the attacker already knows, which pagers are part of the organization they want to target.
What this thread here shows really well, is that the general population vastly underestimates the abilities of intelligence agencies and technology in general.
As I wrote, you can track which pager got paged when. And you can identify who uses that pager. The pager itself does not need to transmit anything for that.
Pager transmissions contain a sender and a receiver. That’s all the information you need. If a known Hisbollah sender sends to a receiver, that receiver obviously has some ties to Hisbollah.
A mobile tower will send it a message, but since there’s no two-way communication, theres no way to track where the pager received the message. (Even if it was a two-way one, you need at least three good points of connection to be able to triangulate it.)
So how exactly do you identify who’s using a pager you don’t even know the location of?
If you know the phone number of a Hisbollah member and they send messages to a set of pagers, these are likely Hisbollah pagers. If you do that to several phone numbers, you get a pretty comprehensive list of members. You don’t need to know, where exactly they are. That’s simply not relevant.
And again: if it’s a supply chain attack, you don’t even need these contacts. Just a single entry point into the supply chain of the organization.
And since tracking the devices is actually impossible, how would you know which pager is where and held by whom,
Say one of the pagers wasn’t delivered to the person who you “know” it to belong to. Say it got dropped in front of a school. Say another person who has one and even is a Hezbollah member, is visiting a children’s hospital, because they’re people too and usually have reasons to fight (even if their fighting style is immoral to some). Say another is eating dinner with his family. Etc. Etc. Etc.
There’s no way to verify any of that. It’s basically just as bad if not worse than carpet-bombing. Unless you implant a device like this on a person and then have surveillance on that person to know where they are and who with when you detonate the device, you’re probably doing a war crime.
Israel didn’t target civilian areas in Beirut. They targeted members of Hezbollah, a terrorist militia, that has attacked Israel non stop since October 7th 2023.
Then I guess Hezbollah attacking IDF servicemen wherever they might be, including civilian areas in Tel Aviv, is completely okay. Even if it comes to some civilian casualties.
They have attacked the IDF many times and secured numerous casualities, just recently they struck an IDF intelligence unit with drones killing dozens, resulting in the commander’s resignation.
Oh no, they’ll probably just plant detonation devices™️ in areas where IDF servicemen usually are and hope that no collateral civilian casualties™️ happen. After all it’s a very genuine war tactic and definitely not a terrorist attack
That would be a comparable attack, yes of course. However Hezbollah doesn’t possess such sophisticated capabilities.
As far as collateral damage and civilian deaths the attack on Hezbollah seems to have been exceptionally good. Making a personal device explode is one of the most targeted ways you can conduct an attack.
Both of them are ‘wrong’ and ‘okay’ when they do this. But in some way Hezbollah is ‘more wrong’, because they (re)started it. The only result being a lot of useless casualties with no end in sight.
So, what exactly do you think would be a proper reaction here?
Hisbollah is de facto a state actor in Lebanon. Lebanon is doing nothing against a group whose declared goal is the destruction of Israel, including shooting unguided rockets into civilian areas.
Now, how would you address that? Unless you have any idea how else to solve this, you’re simply talking out of your ass.
I hardly think it is necessary to be an expert in Near-East conflict or politics in order to condemn what basically amounts to a terrorist attack.
Whether or not they should do something is a different issue all together. But dismissing criticism because they don’t provide an alternate solution to an intricate problem is hardly any more helpful. Israel has many more pathways to do this properly, one idea would be the ICJ.
You’re also falling into an overgeneralization fallacy. While Hezbollah is in the lebanese government, this doesn’t make all citizens of lebanon complicit. Hezbollah doesn’t represent all of Lebanon, neither do Hamas all of Palestine or Netanjahu all of Israel.
Maybe they should stop their genocide in Palestine. Hesbollah has said on multiple occasions that they’ll stop any hostilities if a permanent ceasefire is implemented.
Not that I think the Israel is the good guy in this conflict, but your argument is pretty weak.
Pager are designed to be trackable. If you have such deep access to these devices, you know exactly who got called by whom and when.
Yes, there will be collateral damage, but that’s almost a given in any armed conflict.
If these were one-way pagers,they are not easy to track, as they don’t transmit messages, but only receive and display them.
…and you know which telephone numbers send data to the pager and at which time. That is sufficient to track or identify individuals.
If this is a supply chain attack, the attacker already knows, which pagers are part of the organization they want to target.
What this thread here shows really well, is that the general population vastly underestimates the abilities of intelligence agencies and technology in general.
You wrote a bunch of things that have nothing to do with my comment.
The terrorist organization Hezbollah used dumb pagers exactly because they don’t transmit anything, and therefore are very hard to track.
No, they are not.
As I wrote, you can track which pager got paged when. And you can identify who uses that pager. The pager itself does not need to transmit anything for that.
You obviously don’t know how tracking works.
You obviously don’t know how one-way pagers work.
You can’t easily track a device that doesn’t communicate outwardly.
Please track the location of my ceiling fan, it receives wireless transmissions from a remote and beeps in response. Kind of like a pager.
I don’t need your location.
Pager transmissions contain a sender and a receiver. That’s all the information you need. If a known Hisbollah sender sends to a receiver, that receiver obviously has some ties to Hisbollah.
These are literally one-way receivers. It’s like how I can’t track your fm radio receiver
I agree. Although in this case the receiver does that and only that. No delivery confirmation or anything. Good luck tracking its location.
How so? How do you track said dumb pager?
This is a reasonable point. But that doesn’t mean you can pinpoint the recipients location.
You can’t track a pager.
A mobile tower will send it a message, but since there’s no two-way communication, theres no way to track where the pager received the message. (Even if it was a two-way one, you need at least three good points of connection to be able to triangulate it.)
So how exactly do you identify who’s using a pager you don’t even know the location of?
Ditto
By tracking who sent what to whom?
If you know the phone number of a Hisbollah member and they send messages to a set of pagers, these are likely Hisbollah pagers. If you do that to several phone numbers, you get a pretty comprehensive list of members. You don’t need to know, where exactly they are. That’s simply not relevant.
And again: if it’s a supply chain attack, you don’t even need these contacts. Just a single entry point into the supply chain of the organization.
And since tracking the devices is actually impossible, how would you know which pager is where and held by whom,
Say one of the pagers wasn’t delivered to the person who you “know” it to belong to. Say it got dropped in front of a school. Say another person who has one and even is a Hezbollah member, is visiting a children’s hospital, because they’re people too and usually have reasons to fight (even if their fighting style is immoral to some). Say another is eating dinner with his family. Etc. Etc. Etc.
There’s no way to verify any of that. It’s basically just as bad if not worse than carpet-bombing. Unless you implant a device like this on a person and then have surveillance on that person to know where they are and who with when you detonate the device, you’re probably doing a war crime.
deleted by creator
So which armed conflict in the middle of Beirut are you talking about now?
Maybe the guys shooting rockets at Israel?
Don’t play dumber than you are.
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Israel didn’t target civilian areas in Beirut. They targeted members of Hezbollah, a terrorist militia, that has attacked Israel non stop since October 7th 2023.
Then I guess Hezbollah attacking IDF servicemen wherever they might be, including civilian areas in Tel Aviv, is completely okay. Even if it comes to some civilian casualties.
I doubt if Hezbollah would attack the IDF directly. The IDF is armed and would shoot back immediatley.
They have attacked the IDF many times and secured numerous casualities, just recently they struck an IDF intelligence unit with drones killing dozens, resulting in the commander’s resignation.
Oh no, they’ll probably just plant detonation devices™️ in areas where IDF servicemen usually are and hope that no collateral civilian casualties™️ happen. After all it’s a very genuine war tactic and definitely not a terrorist attack
That would be a comparable attack, yes of course. However Hezbollah doesn’t possess such sophisticated capabilities.
As far as collateral damage and civilian deaths the attack on Hezbollah seems to have been exceptionally good. Making a personal device explode is one of the most targeted ways you can conduct an attack.
Both of them are ‘wrong’ and ‘okay’ when they do this. But in some way Hezbollah is ‘more wrong’, because they (re)started it. The only result being a lot of useless casualties with no end in sight.
So, what exactly do you think would be a proper reaction here?
Hisbollah is de facto a state actor in Lebanon. Lebanon is doing nothing against a group whose declared goal is the destruction of Israel, including shooting unguided rockets into civilian areas.
Now, how would you address that? Unless you have any idea how else to solve this, you’re simply talking out of your ass.
It’s easy, stop the colonization
Hezbollah wants all of Israel destroyed. Are you telling Israel to just kill themselves?
Hizbollah was created in response to israel invasion in 1982
Israel invaded because they were attacked over a long period from Lebanese soil.
I hardly think it is necessary to be an expert in Near-East conflict or politics in order to condemn what basically amounts to a terrorist attack.
Whether or not they should do something is a different issue all together. But dismissing criticism because they don’t provide an alternate solution to an intricate problem is hardly any more helpful. Israel has many more pathways to do this properly, one idea would be the ICJ.
You’re also falling into an overgeneralization fallacy. While Hezbollah is in the lebanese government, this doesn’t make all citizens of lebanon complicit. Hezbollah doesn’t represent all of Lebanon, neither do Hamas all of Palestine or Netanjahu all of Israel.
Obviously Israel should kindly ask that they turn themselves over a the border so they can have a fair trial
Maybe they should stop their genocide in Palestine. Hesbollah has said on multiple occasions that they’ll stop any hostilities if a permanent ceasefire is implemented.
They attacked one day after Hamas ‘to keep the IDF busy’. Their long term goal is to destroy Israel and install an islamic state, not keep the peace.
They were shot from inside Beirut?
YoUrE ArGuMeNt is WeAk