“Curbed immigration” means people from the Middle East and Africa, right? If a lot of Canadians decided to emigrate, something tells me people like you would be much less upset.
So here’s an immigrant perspective; as an Eastern European in Western Europe I see that the wealthy are using me as a cudgel to keep the locals down. I’m paying quite high rents in a market where a lot of the locals in different careers can’t, and there is a housing crisis. The place I’m renting could be where someone’s kid would move out to.
And it’s partly German neocolonialism that fucked up Eastern Europe, so thank Merkel I’m here, since it’s this or the VW factory.
That said, the people who kept the whole literal city awake honking their horns last midnight while waving Turkish flags, or the Moroccan teenagers accosting everyone near my place, including hurling abuse at my Asian or queer neighbours don’t scream peaceful coexistence.
That said, the people who kept the whole literal city awake honking their horns last midnight while waving Turkish flags, or the Moroccan teenagers accosting everyone near my place, including hurling abuse at my Asian or queer neighbours don’t scream peaceful coexistence.
I think the argument to make here is that those people should be dealt with on an individual level rather than demonize an entire group. For every Turk honking their horns in your city at midnight, I am guessing there were exponentially more sleeping or trying to sleep but they couldn’t because of the small number of assholes honking horns.
Of course, but if you put those few hundred into jail for the night to cool off, the paper will run that you are putting hundreds of Turks into jail, you racist.
Easier to just put in earplugs to ignore it, and pay for driving lessons so your wife can avoid the metro in the evening, but you ignore it for a decade, and now somehow nazis have the vote, and we are afraid of being caught in the crossfire as we already are, facing workplace discrimination and such.
I know it’s not an easy problem with a clear solution, but it’s a problem.
If anyone needs proof about what you’re saying: just compare the backlash against the EU taking in 1 million Syrian refugees (which lasted for years) vs the backlash against the EU taking in 4 million Ukrainian refugees (of which I’ve heard virtually no complaints).
Of course there is going to be a preference for those that will integrate easily. Why wouldn’t there be?
The Irish didn’t go over there and “civilise” anyone so that argument doesn’t apply.
Poles, Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians and other Europeans have come here in numbers and they’ve been welcomed because they integrated. Many folks from African nations too.
Syrians… Not so much integrating.
Edit: To be clear I’m not in the anti immigration camp. I just think a preference for those of similar culture or who will integrate is natural.
You missed my point entirely which was about integration. I’m not afraid of different people - quite the opposite. I believe experiencing other cultures is essential. I’m very well traveled and really enjoy embracing other cultures.
Last year I went to the wedding of the daughter of Sri Lankan friends who have integrated incredibly well. It was a really cool day out, largely because it was different. I loved seeing the differences - the clothes, the intricate henna paintings on hands, the food etc. About 20% of the wedding attendees were Irish born and I felt lucky to be one of them.
I’m friends with a Palestinian lad nearly 20 years now (to be fair, he only moved here about 7 years ago but we had worked together in the middle east a good bit before that). He’s a gem. I was so happy when he finally got citizenship. He had never owned a passport in his life and had to get company sponsored “travel documents” from Egypt (iirc) if he wanted to go anywhere outside the UAE where he was living statelessly.
The folks I’m talking about there enhance our country. They’re very, very welcome. The issue is integration. Bring your different culture with you. Share it! I’ll share mine too. Let’s change each other a little through our different perspectives.
I’m not sure your side of the conversation is being had in good faith at this point.
I can’t speak for the French. You’d have to ask them. I know there have been integration issues there. The very fast swing towards the hard right is one sign to me that integration has failed badly though. We had no such swing to the right in last month’s elections here thankfully though there is a definite increase in the number of vocal hard right lunatics here unfortunately.
I think a fair question is - are some cultures less open to integrating when they move to a new country? Another fair question is - are the people in the country where folks are immigrating to less open to integrating with the new arrivals?
If the answer to either is “yes” then the societal cost of that lack of integration (or ways to mitigate it) has to be looked at lest we end up in a very undesirable situation that we are rapidly moving towards.
Seriously? You take over their country, tell them how much better your civilization and culture are and then expect them to want to stay where they are?
“Curbed immigration” means people from the Middle East and Africa, right? If a lot of Canadians decided to emigrate, something tells me people like you would be much less upset.
So here’s an immigrant perspective; as an Eastern European in Western Europe I see that the wealthy are using me as a cudgel to keep the locals down. I’m paying quite high rents in a market where a lot of the locals in different careers can’t, and there is a housing crisis. The place I’m renting could be where someone’s kid would move out to.
And it’s partly German neocolonialism that fucked up Eastern Europe, so thank Merkel I’m here, since it’s this or the VW factory.
That said, the people who kept the whole literal city awake honking their horns last midnight while waving Turkish flags, or the Moroccan teenagers accosting everyone near my place, including hurling abuse at my Asian or queer neighbours don’t scream peaceful coexistence.
I think the argument to make here is that those people should be dealt with on an individual level rather than demonize an entire group. For every Turk honking their horns in your city at midnight, I am guessing there were exponentially more sleeping or trying to sleep but they couldn’t because of the small number of assholes honking horns.
Of course, but if you put those few hundred into jail for the night to cool off, the paper will run that you are putting hundreds of Turks into jail, you racist.
Easier to just put in earplugs to ignore it, and pay for driving lessons so your wife can avoid the metro in the evening, but you ignore it for a decade, and now somehow nazis have the vote, and we are afraid of being caught in the crossfire as we already are, facing workplace discrimination and such.
I know it’s not an easy problem with a clear solution, but it’s a problem.
If anyone needs proof about what you’re saying: just compare the backlash against the EU taking in 1 million Syrian refugees (which lasted for years) vs the backlash against the EU taking in 4 million Ukrainian refugees (of which I’ve heard virtually no complaints).
Well they have a similar culture.
And there it is. They’re too “different” to be allowed to emigrate to Europe.
Despite Europe going over there and “civilizing” them when they invaded all of their countries and ran them for years.
Of course there is going to be a preference for those that will integrate easily. Why wouldn’t there be?
The Irish didn’t go over there and “civilise” anyone so that argument doesn’t apply.
Poles, Ukrainians, Latvians, Lithuanians and other Europeans have come here in numbers and they’ve been welcomed because they integrated. Many folks from African nations too.
Syrians… Not so much integrating.
Edit: To be clear I’m not in the anti immigration camp. I just think a preference for those of similar culture or who will integrate is natural.
Yes, I understand that people fear those who are different from them.
You missed my point entirely which was about integration. I’m not afraid of different people - quite the opposite. I believe experiencing other cultures is essential. I’m very well traveled and really enjoy embracing other cultures.
Last year I went to the wedding of the daughter of Sri Lankan friends who have integrated incredibly well. It was a really cool day out, largely because it was different. I loved seeing the differences - the clothes, the intricate henna paintings on hands, the food etc. About 20% of the wedding attendees were Irish born and I felt lucky to be one of them.
I’m friends with a Palestinian lad nearly 20 years now (to be fair, he only moved here about 7 years ago but we had worked together in the middle east a good bit before that). He’s a gem. I was so happy when he finally got citizenship. He had never owned a passport in his life and had to get company sponsored “travel documents” from Egypt (iirc) if he wanted to go anywhere outside the UAE where he was living statelessly.
The folks I’m talking about there enhance our country. They’re very, very welcome. The issue is integration. Bring your different culture with you. Share it! I’ll share mine too. Let’s change each other a little through our different perspectives.
And every person from one specific part in the world will refuse to integrate if they emigrate to France?
I’m not sure your side of the conversation is being had in good faith at this point.
I can’t speak for the French. You’d have to ask them. I know there have been integration issues there. The very fast swing towards the hard right is one sign to me that integration has failed badly though. We had no such swing to the right in last month’s elections here thankfully though there is a definite increase in the number of vocal hard right lunatics here unfortunately.
I think a fair question is - are some cultures less open to integrating when they move to a new country? Another fair question is - are the people in the country where folks are immigrating to less open to integrating with the new arrivals?
If the answer to either is “yes” then the societal cost of that lack of integration (or ways to mitigate it) has to be looked at lest we end up in a very undesirable situation that we are rapidly moving towards.
Why colonizing them change anything?
Seriously? You take over their country, tell them how much better your civilization and culture are and then expect them to want to stay where they are?
Well you dont have to let them in.
Yes, I understand that if you’re a bigot, you think that only white people deserve to be in France. I already suggested as much.
No? Where did you get that idea?
No? You’re saying bigots do think that only white people deserve to be in France?