The point of a degree is that the individual is certified at having a certain level of ability in a specific field. How is a student supposed to regularly demonstrate they understand the material in a format that is workable with one teacher, a few TAs, and a hundred students? Would the degree be an accurate endorsement if they passed all their classes by cheating?
How is a student supposed to regularly demonstrate they understand the material in a format that is workable with one teacher, a few TAs, and a hundred students?
This is kind of the core problem at work here, I think, more than the cheating itself, even. Cheating is kind of like piracy, you know, it’s an issue, but it’s coming about because of a lack of proper feedback in terms of what you’re doing correct or incorrect. It’s a systemic issue. It’s easier for a teacher to just give you an F and call it a day, rather than writing paragraph on paragraph of feedback, or being an individualized therapist for every single student in their class of hundreds, and trying to get them to engage with the material, or figure out what they’re specifically having trouble with when they might just be a kind of guarded and closed individual. More likely is that teachers just kind of rely on their students coming to them, before they’re given help, but in all of my extremely limited experience, this is not a solution that actually works for those who need the most help.
Anecdotal but I have a team of devs under me, cheating is definitely still a thing in industry. Some people copy other people’s work and claim it as their own and they are weak devs. I could teach them, but when it gets close to micromanaging I have to let them go due to poor performance.
Many of them don’t grow up. Be an adult. I hire people based on how teachable they are. Cheating cheapens that.
If I were a teacher I could give two shit’s if students cheated if they learned the material.
If the code they copied from github worked with the sample data provided but failed in most other cases it’s safe to say they didn’t learn the material, or didn’t care enough to actually read the code they were submitting.
There’s often modules to work collaboratively for this very reason.
The point of this module will have been to learn and understand the material, which will also have been the point of the assignment.
Also, on the cheating not being a thing outside of real life point. a) it is - there are lots of things you can cheat at which is against the rules. Stealing for example could be considered cheating as you haven’t earnt the item you’re stealing. b) uni/college is not there to teach you real life. It’s there to provide you the materials to learn a subject. Don’t want to use those materials and learn? Well then you probably just shouldn’t be there.
“cheating” is almost not a thing outside of school.
They are supposed to know how to program. All these students had to do was to fix the code they copied. In the outside world that’s the difference between having a job and getting fired for being an incompetent ass.
you collaborate and work with people to help you both understand.
If it’s a group assignment, sure. But if some contractors decide to work together instead of being competitors, that’s hugely illegal and fraudulent. If two random people from two different governments decide to pool their work together, that’s possibly treason.
“cheating” is almost not a thing outside of school.
Ever heard of scams? Fraud? Legal loopholes? All those white collar crimes that people somehow manage to get away with? Or, more importantly, plagiarism?
I know, “only plagiarism is similar, none of the other things is about copying someone else’s work”. True. But all of them are about not getting caught.
Also, specifically for programming, you can cheat if you’re “smart” enough, by simply outsourcing your job and claiming it’s all your work.
you collaborate and work with people to help you and them understand. It’s crazy that showing someone the answers and explaining said answer to them is considered cheating. And because the very act of sharing your work is villainized these students have never been taught how to properly work collaboratively outside of just sharing answers. It’s absolutely ridiculous.
This, I fully agree with. Humanity didn’t get here with people learning and memorizing shit by themselves, never asking for help. It’s always been about sharing knowledge, collaborating for a goal that’s impossible at the individual level. Most education systems completely fail to teach collaboration.
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Sounds like they didn’t learn the material though. If they had learned it they would have noticed it would fail when graded by a human.
Then maybe the teacher is also shitty.
The point of a degree is that the individual is certified at having a certain level of ability in a specific field. How is a student supposed to regularly demonstrate they understand the material in a format that is workable with one teacher, a few TAs, and a hundred students? Would the degree be an accurate endorsement if they passed all their classes by cheating?
This is kind of the core problem at work here, I think, more than the cheating itself, even. Cheating is kind of like piracy, you know, it’s an issue, but it’s coming about because of a lack of proper feedback in terms of what you’re doing correct or incorrect. It’s a systemic issue. It’s easier for a teacher to just give you an F and call it a day, rather than writing paragraph on paragraph of feedback, or being an individualized therapist for every single student in their class of hundreds, and trying to get them to engage with the material, or figure out what they’re specifically having trouble with when they might just be a kind of guarded and closed individual. More likely is that teachers just kind of rely on their students coming to them, before they’re given help, but in all of my extremely limited experience, this is not a solution that actually works for those who need the most help.
Anecdotal but I have a team of devs under me, cheating is definitely still a thing in industry. Some people copy other people’s work and claim it as their own and they are weak devs. I could teach them, but when it gets close to micromanaging I have to let them go due to poor performance.
Many of them don’t grow up. Be an adult. I hire people based on how teachable they are. Cheating cheapens that.
“If I were a teacher I could give to shit’s if students cheated if they learned the material.”
Oh, the irony😂, do we tell him?
Yes, it’s “two” sue me it’s 4 in the morning
Gotta admit, given the context pretty damn funny. Thanks for the laugh @ 4 am
If the code they copied from github worked with the sample data provided but failed in most other cases it’s safe to say they didn’t learn the material, or didn’t care enough to actually read the code they were submitting.
There’s often modules to work collaboratively for this very reason.
The point of this module will have been to learn and understand the material, which will also have been the point of the assignment.
Also, on the cheating not being a thing outside of real life point. a) it is - there are lots of things you can cheat at which is against the rules. Stealing for example could be considered cheating as you haven’t earnt the item you’re stealing. b) uni/college is not there to teach you real life. It’s there to provide you the materials to learn a subject. Don’t want to use those materials and learn? Well then you probably just shouldn’t be there.
They are supposed to know how to program. All these students had to do was to fix the code they copied. In the outside world that’s the difference between having a job and getting fired for being an incompetent ass.
If it’s a group assignment, sure. But if some contractors decide to work together instead of being competitors, that’s hugely illegal and fraudulent. If two random people from two different governments decide to pool their work together, that’s possibly treason.
Ever heard of scams? Fraud? Legal loopholes? All those white collar crimes that people somehow manage to get away with? Or, more importantly, plagiarism?
I know, “only plagiarism is similar, none of the other things is about copying someone else’s work”. True. But all of them are about not getting caught.
Also, specifically for programming, you can cheat if you’re “smart” enough, by simply outsourcing your job and claiming it’s all your work.
This, I fully agree with. Humanity didn’t get here with people learning and memorizing shit by themselves, never asking for help. It’s always been about sharing knowledge, collaborating for a goal that’s impossible at the individual level. Most education systems completely fail to teach collaboration.