Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are both fantastic games - and Tears of the Kingdom really does feel (to me) like they just took Breath of the Wild, and added a few more years of dev time to it.
Where do you think Nintendo will take Zelda from here though? Can they keep with the same new formula? Should they? Will a more traditional game feel disappointing after this?
I don’t really know what I want myself. I think they should try something different though. At the same time, I can’t help but think I’d be disappointed if the next game was more similar to something like Twilight Princess. Have they boxed themselves in?
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Assuming we get a third game in the botw run, I would love to see link travel back to early Hyrule like Zelda did. Nintendo could use the blueprint of the depths ruins as the backbone for a thriving Zonai civilization. Aboveground would be a truly wild Hyrule similar to what the depths are now. No sky islands as this would predate their creation. Instead we could have a ‘dive’ feature that lets us visit an ancient Zora, spread out in the waters in and around Hyrule. All new characters (except maybe Raru and friends), but many characters could be ancestors of current characters so they would be familiar in some ways. I would love to see the ability to tame monsters, more complex Zonai devices, and yes, perhaps real dungeons.
Also I could even see a fourth game in this series that totally turns all of the formula on its head. It would actually star Zelda, and she would travel through time to different eras of Hyrule. We’d get to see areas and dungeons from ocarina of time, twilight princess, skyward sword and even many of the 2d titles, redesigned with botw graphics and controls. The focus of the game would be for Zelda to help Link. She must stay out of sight, navigate dungeons to place keys, compasses, maps and/or key weapons that the link of that era will need to defeat whatever evil he faces. I think this would be super cool.
You’re hired. I’d play this for sure.
Thanks!
At first I was like I don’t wanna play as Zelda but as you went into more detail I was like hell yeah that sounds amazing!!!
Instead we could have a ‘dive’ feature that lets us visit an ancient Zora, spread out in the waters in and around Hyrule.
The Legend of Zelda: The Way of Water
In all seriousness though, this sounds amazing. There are so many unanswered questions from the BotW universe. It would be interesting to see another addition to the series.
What questions would you like to see answered?
Is it possible to post spoilers on Lemmy?
I don’t think so. I’m going to try now with reddit code.
!testing testing one, two ummm 12!<
Edit: looks like no :(
Agh that’s too bad! In that case I’ll just say I want to know more details about the reward you get when completing all 152 shrines. So many questions!
Messaged you!
I know I’m 10 days late, but you can post spoilers on Lemmy
Like this
Spoilery text goes here
And here
Etc
Which you do like this:
Although I might be in the minority, I hope that they try to make a story-centered game like Twilight Princess. I loved how deep the characters felt and the atmosphere so much. I think they could mix in more story telling and maybe even some kind of friendship/affinity system with NPCs. I don’t think it would interfere with the core mechanics too much.
There was definitely lacking in the story department in totk. In botw at least you got to find the villages, get to understand the different cultures etc. In totk being the same, that discovery factor was gone and the story elements were severely lacking. The missions are also very basic and somehow don’t have the satisfaction of completing them.
I haven’t finished TOTK yet and I feel the same. It’s a good sandbox game of zonai tech, but IMO it’s not a good “Zelda” game. I know people might argue that traditional approach of dungeon puzzle or boss design makes it too “linear” or not exploring the creativity of player. Basically, designer designed how a puzzle or boss should be dealt with. BUT, at least it was done in a meaningful way that you learn along the way of different mechanism and how older Zelda shine.
I will probably try finished all the shrines and story and put it away. Since the side quests I run into so far are mostly copy paste side quests. (photo quests I will probably do them all if I can find them. I like photo quests)
To be honest, other than theming, the old Zelda dungeons are overrated. Every dungeon from LttP and on – you’re going to get an item, and that item is critical to unlocking the 2nd half of the dungeon. It’s exceedingly linear. I don’t consider boomerang lock-on for 5 targets or using fire arrows to light torches amazing gameplay.
I do love totks crazy spinning fan torch puzzles.
I’m convinced lately the fan praise of Twilight Princess is due to youth having this as their first game. It doesn’t hold a candle to what OoT or Majora’s Mask was. Even then, OoT is LttP in 3d (for the first time, and it was phenomenal).
This is how I felt. I’ve played, and loved, so many past Zelda games. BoTW and ToTk just don’t interest me like their story driven counterparts. I want a more curated Zelda experience.
Twilight Princess was probably my third favourite. Really need to replay that.
Agreed. Twilight Princess is probably my favourite Zelda game, and I’d love to see something similar at some point. I don’t know if we will though, given how successful BotW and TotK have been. I’m not sure if strong storytelling would fit with the open world paradigm.
Didn’t Miyamoto say that this is the new template for Zelda? Or at least something along the lines that this is the direction they will be heading in.
I’m expecting the next to be quite different in some extend (not as equal to BotW/TotK), but I am expecting the open world to be here to stay at least.
It was the producer Eiji Aonuma who said that Breath of the Wild was the new template going forward. https://www.eurogamer.net/open-world-zelda-is-a-format-for-the-future-of-the-series-says-producer-eiji-aonuma
Ah you’re right, thanks for the correction!
A Link to the Past it up. Give me Hyrule in the distant past, now, hell, even the future. Design the puzzles around it. And give me a Hookshot as well
Hookshot, a good boomerang and more light puzzles!
I like the idea of more open world games, would still like the dungeons to be a bit stronger, though totk was an improvement. I think a return of the great sea is a natural extension and could give an opportunity for different powers that would be more helpful on the open ocean, kind of like how ascend was a natural complement of caves and the depths. I think keeping autobuild and ultrahand and extending it further to boats or maybe even airships in the endgame would be really neat. Could also see them building on time powers even more. Maybe a return to termina?
I felt like ultrahand and even the towers were too powerful in TOTK. Fine for an end game type improvement, but when you had them from the start it cuts out a lot of the discovery, I think.
I think they need to find a way to merge the BOTW open world with the more traditional structure of Zelda games. The issue is that those two philosophies are sort of at odds with each other, with BOTW and TOTK not wanting the player to be locked out of anything while exploring the world while the traditional structure has you unlock items throughout the game in order to solve puzzles, which there are much fewer of outside of dungeons. It can work though, if Wind Waker is any indication with its side islands.
Story/progression gating the dungeons is probably the right move. That seems to be what most people want.
The overworld itself is (literally) giant Hyrule Field—a big open space with secrets to explore that connects all of the main story-relevant areas together. But the dungeons themselves don’t need to be open/available from the get-go, and it’s possible to gate access behind specific story progression or tool access.
I think what we see as far as difference in design is that the BotW/TotK dungeons are nonlinear and relatively gimmick free. In BotW, the one feature of each dungeon was manipulating it’s position from the map to make things happen. In TotK, it’s your allies’ abilities. And then from there, you have X number of things you need to turn on, and then you can proceed to the boss.
The older style, conceptually, isn’t so far removed from today, but they go mostly linearly. Instead of finding X number of terminals in whatever order you want, you find a key that opens a path that leads to another key. Halfway through, you find a new tool that allows you to navigate the central gimmick of the dungeon in a different way, leading you to more keys and eventually ending with a big key for the boss room.
If TotK had a linear path from terminal to terminal, and each dungeon featured, say, some sort of unique Zonai device found nowhere else that becomes key to solving the puzzles, that would basically be the old formula people are looking for.
I feel like they did everything they could open world wise with TotK, would love something smaller with more focus and detail like Majora’s Mask again.
If Nintendo makes a third game based off the BOTW map, I would love to see an expansion of towns/villages. One thing I was slightly disappointed by in TOTK was the lack of new villages. I’d love to see a revitalized castle town as well as repaired villages that were once in ruins. Maybe in that way the third game could have more focus on the different npcs and side quests like Majora’s Mask. I think in that way it would help the world feel more alive and we could see progress on the return to Hyrule at its heyday.
A revitalized castle town is probably the natural next step. We had the world in ruins (BotW), society putting itself back together (TotK) and logically we’re approaching some sort of great Hylian restoration that will take place in the third game.
I’d love to see what they could do with a Wind Waker-style game nowadays. With how successful they’ve been at crafting an open world, opening that up to the high seas could be a lot of fun.
This is an interesting thought. I personally don’t care for crafting but if you were able to build and design your own ships…that’s something that could actually be fun!
I would like it if their next game would be more traditional 2d style, something akin to Links Awakening. Personally I like both the 2d and 3d style games, so alternating between the two would be great.
For the 3d games I’m not sure for the direction they should take, but I think a blend of the open world style combined with the more traditional dungeons would be great.
I honestly think they will probably do this. People still love some of the traditional style games like they might have made on their handheld systems before, and I’m sure Nintendo knows they will be profitable.
I agree that I hope it’s different. I have loved playing so many of the Zelda games up until now, but botw wasn’t for me. No problem, I figured, I’ll just wait a couple years and the next one will be for me! Now I’m nervous that this is what Zelda is now, and I’m stuck going back to old content and replaying if I ever want Zelda again which is a huge bummer. Part of what I love about Zelda is that each game is different according to the gimmicks of the system. These huge open worlds with so many menus and so much storage are a bit overwhelming to me.
They said the BOTW formula is the template for the series for now on, I’m afraid. And I hated it. I didn’t even buy TOTK. But a 2D Zelda can be in the cards for an off team, this has higher chances than a tradicional 3D Zelda for sure.
Yep, I really hope they continue making 2D style games along side the 3D ones.
I agree that I hope it’s different. I have loved playing so many of the Zelda games up until now, but botw wasn’t for me. No problem, I figured, I’ll just wait a couple years and the next one will be for me! Now I’m nervous that this is what Zelda is now, and I’m stuck going back to old content and replaying if I ever want Zelda again which is a huge bummer. Part of what I love about Zelda is that each game is different according to the gimmicks of the system. These huge open worlds with so many menus and so much storage are a bit overwhelming to me.
With Nintendo, I feel like it’s almost impossible to know which way they’re going to innovate - but in hindsight it’s all so clear. Really the only claim we can almost bet for is they’re not going to compete in the graphical fidelity market.
After ToTK, I am begging for something less open, though I doubt we see that
I don’t think the openness is the problem. The temples were too short, too easy and too few. The cutscene dialogue was clunky (obviously translated) and too repetitive.
I loved the temples in SS… nothing in TotK’s temples felt so atmospheric.
If nintendo keep the exact same formula, a Botw3, then that would be very out of pace for Nintendo and very disappointing. One of the most disappointing parts about Totk is that it’s very much botw again, fixed in many ways, with some new ideas. But Nintendo usually like to change things up much more than that.
I very much hope that the creative spark for something different is still there
The level of ingenuity and the story alone set it miles ahead and make BOTW feel like a hollow prequel
OoT, considered one of the greatest games of all time, is literally Link to the Past 3d. Majora’s mask is like a mod of OoT. WW was a huge deviation, but same dungeon structure. Twilight Princess is OoT, but edgier and with a weird platformer mix that was common in the latter stages of N64 and early Wii.
I’m general, Nintendo iterates on Zelda. I’d love for a Wind Waker 2 a la totk.
ahh i don’t know about that, I could probably write a giant nerd rant about how OoT is anything but Link to the Past 3D. From it’s combat to world design, story, vibe, pacing, mechanics and yeah dungeon layout, it’s all wildly different than what is executed in LttP.
It’s one of the things I really loved about the gameboy games and eventually the sequel to LttP, whilst the 3D games happened, there was this direct linage from LttP that kept everything the same, in pocket form.
I mean, clearly it was an evolution on all fronts, but the inheritance is clear across the board. Light world, 3 dungeons, dark world, 7. In each dungeon you find the same compass, boss key, core item (I forget if map was in both).
Undeniably, both games were utter masterclasses. I still maintain OoT holds the GOAT title screen, just scraping by Halo due to the animation.
I would love to read an essay on Zelda games if you write it, I might even change my opinion :)
Also, since you seem to have lived through the times (did you?), what are your thoughts on totk-esque dungeons vs everyone clamouring for an “old school” Zelda game? I’m thinking totk combined with old school items, instead of attaching to weapons and arrows, but keeping totk exploration, would be sublime.
Totk/botw dungeon divide between fans is super interesting isn’t it? I think everyone is right here, they aren’t “zelda” dungeons, and zelda as a series has lost a certain something with that move. But also people really love the new direction, especially the shrines in totk.
For the items, you can see the lineage directly from A Link between worlds through to totk. In albw they were super proud of their “get any item as soon as you want by renting any one item” system instead of having to beat a dungeon to get items, it let you clear the games dungeons in (mostly) any order you wanted. In botw they gave you all the items all the time, that killed progression entirely. But the build your own solution idea in totk seems to have brought something new. It’d be hard to go back to dungeon items without losing that aspect of totk.
I’m not massively confident that Nintendo care to close the gap on dungeons though, they seem happy with the way things are now, there’s a case to be made that the actual dungeons in totk are a lot less interesting than the divine beast dungeons in botw.
Do you think there is anything lacking in botw1/2 that bringing back items fixes?
I’m rambling because I love Zelda, but I’m also working rn, but also want Lemmy to have content.
I’m in a mild counter-party. In totk, I went Goron first, but didn’t get to the temple. I then deviated back to Rito hoping to unlock the aerial boost from botw. That opening sequence to the wind temple (SPOILERS AHEAD) of Link ascending through the skies was, in my opinion, the greatest moment in Zelda history so far (I haven’t yet completed the water temple, desert temple, or the other). The mild puzzle for unlocking the water temple (the eye in the sky) was brilliant. The goron story was slightly dark, akin to older 3d titles like Majora’s Mask. I can’t wait to see what the other temples bring (diablo 4 hardcore sucking my time up).
Consistently in totk we see the hero doing epic feats we’ve never really been able to see him do before. The boss fight for the wind temple was absolutely bonkers and really gives credence to Link being worthy of the Triforce and being a hero of time. The way the music overtures slowly ramp up as you progress in the dungeon is phenomenal.
Do you think there is anything lacking in botw1/2 that bringing back items fixes? I think the reliance of fusing as a primary gimmick is terrible (especially for arrows). As a side application, it would be awesome. I’m really hope in the third installment they bring back some core items, but I just don’t see how it would work? Right now you can climb everything and be everywhere (which is something else I think is vastly underrated in botw+). In the 3d zeldas, Ice/Fire arrows were huge deals, but in botw you can just fuse berries on for the same effect. Arguing one is better than the other, idk. The openness of totk is superb. If you watched 10 people play the first 10 hours of the game, or even approach the same temple, I sincerely doubt any of them would look remotely close to the same. There’s definitely something to be said about that.
I miss the hookshot (more so the grappling hook from Wind Waker).
What I would absolutely love and they could leverage would be to mix both their new open-world and visual style with going back with the sea and island (and more cartoonish) elements of Wind Waker. I adored that game, where each island had its own flair, this could be expanded upon so much with the new engine.
I like the more metroivania style too of finding an element in a dungeon of island and then having it unlock more possibilities later elsewhere. I feel like giving all the powers and tools at the beginning of the newer games has put a damper on this side of the usual formula.
The two major things I loved about BOTW and TOTK were the flexibility of the puzzle solutions and the story; I think if those aspects can be put into a new world and setting, I would be very happy.
Also in both games if a puzzle is too hard or you’re just not in the mood, you can step away and do something else; I loved this, it lets your mind refresh so to speak. I want the new game to feel this welcoming.
I agree with this.
In a later part of Tears of the Kingdom, I was presented with one puzzle. A large object needed to be transported up and to the other side of a large room. There was a big spiraling rail going up to the other side, along with a hook and some Zonai fans. So I thought “Just stick it to the hook and propel it up with fans.” Easier said than done, unfortunately, because there were supports along the rail that would stop it from moving further.
But then I remembered I had time powers. So I just grabbed the object, held it up about halfway on the other side for a good 10 seconds, and let it fall. Then I just climbed up the other side, rewound time on the object to lift it back into its midair position, and grabbed it with ultrahand.
You’re talking about the room to retrieve the arm or leg for the construct?
I just went through that room yesterday.
You just hang the hook sideways and problem solved. It will pass through all the supports, carrying the box.
That’s it exactly. I thought it might be something along those lines, since there is obviously a solution they intended with the way the room is set up. But ultimately, after finnicking around with it for a minute or so, it just dawned on me that lifting it and rewinding time would just be way quicker and more direct, so that’s what I did. The way this game is able to accommodate multiple solutions is a thing of beauty.
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I know exactly what puzzle you’re talking about. I did pretty much the same thing lol
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