Andy Young, an ex-Microsoft senior software engineer, posted a message on X/Twitter bemoaning that even with his $1,600 Core i9 CPU and 128 GB of RAM, Windows...
Somehow the Linux evangelists never understand that point.
All your peripherals, no matter how old, and all your (legacy) software just works on windows. Maybe the OS isn’t blazing fast and there is more and more so called bloatware (at least according to FOSS people), but if I plug in my 10y old Logitech wireless mouse, it works in 10 sec. In Linux I’d have to start searching for a solution, a driver, a little hack, a script, a controller repository, etc… It will work eventually, but it’s not intuitive. Doubly so for people that were raised on windows.
Linux is absolutely not user friendly for non techies that have 20y of windows habits in them.
windows also doesn’t just “work out of the box” if we include things like microsoft account, installing software. De garbifying windows.
If you have and or ok with making an MS account, and love having a bloated system, yeah, it works out of the box.
Also, with that logitech mouse, it should be running HID protocol, anything else is just proprietary garbage. Linux literally dropped kernel support from a voodoo graphics card like half a year ago now.
As an end user, I don’t care about proprietary garbage, I want my mouse to work :). I understand the aversion to proprietary stuff etc. But non techie end users don’t give a flying fuck.
Also, everyone has had an MS account since the msn messenger and Hotmail heydays. That is an absolute non issue for 99% of the people tbh.
i mean, that’s fair i suppose. But like, Why the fuck is anybody producing a mouse that isnt using HID, and how could that possibly be beneficial? You might be talking about control software i suppose, but there are often alternative community bits for it. And it sure as hell doesn’t stop a device from working.
The entire fucking point of USB is for it to be a UNIVERSAL serial bus. Building something in such a way that you need proprietary anything to use HID drivers is just baffling levels of stupid. The entire point of having HID be a defined thing, is so that the software side, only has one driver, and the hardware manufactures, can just use it. So that it can just work
it’s not about it just working, it’s also about you as a consumer buying something, that works wherever it is, because it follows explicitly stated standards, that exist for this reason. That is a non argument. You bought a shit product, the only benefit here, is that windows happens to support an arbitrary non standard device protocol. This is like buying a car that doesn’t use a steering wheel, and being pissed off when you learn that literally every other vehicle made ever uses a steering wheel.
That blurb about the MS accounts is not true, i didn’t have one until windows 10 pestered me to get one upon install. If i hadn’t done it then, i would’ve done it later when they bought minecraft, and even them, i don’t want to sign into my OS. I just want it to turn on, and work. Regardless of the state of the internet, and my MS account. I suppose you could say, that i “just want it to work”
People just won’t be willing to use an OS that requires hours just to get connected to a network, or that won’t display at full resolution because of some driver issue. Seems like a basic QOL issue to me.
Linux is not really designed for Windows users. Windows is.
Also, Windows blows.
I use Linux for old laptops, windows for new ones, for that reason.
People just won’t be willing to use an OS that requires hours just to get connected to a network, or that won’t display at full resolution because of some driver issue. Seems like a basic QOL issue to me.
literally never had any of these issues. The closest i’ve been was a weird proprietary bluetooth tag adapter in one of thinkpads that doesn’t work. Oh well, i don’t use bluetooth, and it doesn’t have good driver support. Every intel chipset ever is supported natively (almost, debian doesn’t include non free drivers, but that’s a trivial fix) Literally just use an intel chipset, it will make your life so much easier.
I’m using a 1070 right now on my workstation, display output works just fine with proprietary nvidia drivers, i’ve also had it work just fine with nouveau drivers as well. Hell that shit literally displays at native res without any drivers, you just won’t be doing any GUI acceleration at all. X doesn’t give a shit, it just sees pixels and makes them light up.
No shit windows is designed for windows users? Who the fuck else is it designed for? Animals? This is like complaining about how big and clunky an f150 is after driving a corolla for 10 years. No shit, one of them is literally 3 times the size of the other.
You cannot go into linux expecting it to be like windows, just like you cannot walk into a wall expecting it to work like a door.
Well I haven’t used Windows in years, so I really can’t compare. I’ve been using different distros over the years (lately PopOS) and it’s really become much better in terms of hardware compatibility. There are some distros that are user friendly and work out of the box like that. I think linux has the reputation of being an OS for techies, so people find it intimidating. But if we look at Windows interfaces nowadays they are not as simple as e.g. Windows XP used to be.
But that’s the entire point. The windows UI is still easy, especially for people that have always used windows. There have only been gradual changes. :)
And to slap in an anecdote, I am quite proficient with everything IT related. I try installing Linux once a year on average, in general I try to recommended “noob distros” . I always go back to windows after a few weeks at best. You really have to make an big effort to fully go to Linux. I end up spending more time dealing with the OS itself than doing the stuff I want.
I can absolutely see the appeal of it, but I don’t enjoy it :)
I am trying to think of things that are difficult for using something like Linux mint vs my last Windows install. If we are taking about doing a full, clean install of both, I think my last Windows install was way worse.
Mint installed and just detected everything I was using without a problem. I had to tweak some minor things to get it to display on the 4K TV I am using in my living room, and there are still some games that don’t play nicely with Linux.
The Windows install, on the other hand, required me to get drivers for the video card, WIFI, and a few other things to get all the hardware to work right. Then getting it how I like it took longer than I like and I had to visit multiple sites to get all my preferred software.
When I installed Nobara Linux on my younger sister’s old hand-me-down laptop, I spent more time trying to get the WiFi card working then I did installing the new SSD and operating system. And this is a distro focused on making Linux more “works out of the box” than Fedora (which it’s based on). This isn’t something she would have been able to figure out on her own. I switched the laptop from Windows 10 because of how slow it was, but slow is better than no Internet if you aren’t a tech nerd who can figure out what random ass commands to run to finally get WiFi working.
If you build your PC specifically for the purpose of using Linux it does work out of the box. I realize that’s a very specific use case though. AMD graphics just works, installing anything based on Ubuntu just works, if you download the Nvidia version of pop_os it just works. This out of the box excuse just doesn’t hold any water anymore.
My experience has been opposite. Ubuntu just works. On windows, you have to always fuck around with some 3rd party drivers, and using wierd hacks to even use unsigned drivers at all, be it a RTL-SDR, Android in debug mode, or a USB attached bitcoin miner…
The logitech wireless mouse works instantly on Ubuntu based distros. On windows, it has to install the driver, causing a sizable delay before it’s usable.
Because Linux doesn’t just work out of the box.
Somehow the Linux evangelists never understand that point.
All your peripherals, no matter how old, and all your (legacy) software just works on windows. Maybe the OS isn’t blazing fast and there is more and more so called bloatware (at least according to FOSS people), but if I plug in my 10y old Logitech wireless mouse, it works in 10 sec. In Linux I’d have to start searching for a solution, a driver, a little hack, a script, a controller repository, etc… It will work eventually, but it’s not intuitive. Doubly so for people that were raised on windows.
Linux is absolutely not user friendly for non techies that have 20y of windows habits in them.
windows also doesn’t just “work out of the box” if we include things like microsoft account, installing software. De garbifying windows.
If you have and or ok with making an MS account, and love having a bloated system, yeah, it works out of the box.
Also, with that logitech mouse, it should be running HID protocol, anything else is just proprietary garbage. Linux literally dropped kernel support from a voodoo graphics card like half a year ago now.
As an end user, I don’t care about proprietary garbage, I want my mouse to work :). I understand the aversion to proprietary stuff etc. But non techie end users don’t give a flying fuck.
Also, everyone has had an MS account since the msn messenger and Hotmail heydays. That is an absolute non issue for 99% of the people tbh.
i mean, that’s fair i suppose. But like, Why the fuck is anybody producing a mouse that isnt using HID, and how could that possibly be beneficial? You might be talking about control software i suppose, but there are often alternative community bits for it. And it sure as hell doesn’t stop a device from working.
The entire fucking point of USB is for it to be a UNIVERSAL serial bus. Building something in such a way that you need proprietary anything to use HID drivers is just baffling levels of stupid. The entire point of having HID be a defined thing, is so that the software side, only has one driver, and the hardware manufactures, can just use it. So that it can just work
it’s not about it just working, it’s also about you as a consumer buying something, that works wherever it is, because it follows explicitly stated standards, that exist for this reason. That is a non argument. You bought a shit product, the only benefit here, is that windows happens to support an arbitrary non standard device protocol. This is like buying a car that doesn’t use a steering wheel, and being pissed off when you learn that literally every other vehicle made ever uses a steering wheel.
That blurb about the MS accounts is not true, i didn’t have one until windows 10 pestered me to get one upon install. If i hadn’t done it then, i would’ve done it later when they bought minecraft, and even them, i don’t want to sign into my OS. I just want it to turn on, and work. Regardless of the state of the internet, and my MS account. I suppose you could say, that i “just want it to work”
Wow. You’re really committed!
People just won’t be willing to use an OS that requires hours just to get connected to a network, or that won’t display at full resolution because of some driver issue. Seems like a basic QOL issue to me.
Linux is not really designed for Windows users. Windows is.
Also, Windows blows.
I use Linux for old laptops, windows for new ones, for that reason.
literally never had any of these issues. The closest i’ve been was a weird proprietary bluetooth tag adapter in one of thinkpads that doesn’t work. Oh well, i don’t use bluetooth, and it doesn’t have good driver support. Every intel chipset ever is supported natively (almost, debian doesn’t include non free drivers, but that’s a trivial fix) Literally just use an intel chipset, it will make your life so much easier.
I’m using a 1070 right now on my workstation, display output works just fine with proprietary nvidia drivers, i’ve also had it work just fine with nouveau drivers as well. Hell that shit literally displays at native res without any drivers, you just won’t be doing any GUI acceleration at all. X doesn’t give a shit, it just sees pixels and makes them light up.
No shit windows is designed for windows users? Who the fuck else is it designed for? Animals? This is like complaining about how big and clunky an f150 is after driving a corolla for 10 years. No shit, one of them is literally 3 times the size of the other.
You cannot go into linux expecting it to be like windows, just like you cannot walk into a wall expecting it to work like a door.
Well I haven’t used Windows in years, so I really can’t compare. I’ve been using different distros over the years (lately PopOS) and it’s really become much better in terms of hardware compatibility. There are some distros that are user friendly and work out of the box like that. I think linux has the reputation of being an OS for techies, so people find it intimidating. But if we look at Windows interfaces nowadays they are not as simple as e.g. Windows XP used to be.
But that’s the entire point. The windows UI is still easy, especially for people that have always used windows. There have only been gradual changes. :)
And to slap in an anecdote, I am quite proficient with everything IT related. I try installing Linux once a year on average, in general I try to recommended “noob distros” . I always go back to windows after a few weeks at best. You really have to make an big effort to fully go to Linux. I end up spending more time dealing with the OS itself than doing the stuff I want.
I can absolutely see the appeal of it, but I don’t enjoy it :)
I am trying to think of things that are difficult for using something like Linux mint vs my last Windows install. If we are taking about doing a full, clean install of both, I think my last Windows install was way worse.
Mint installed and just detected everything I was using without a problem. I had to tweak some minor things to get it to display on the 4K TV I am using in my living room, and there are still some games that don’t play nicely with Linux.
The Windows install, on the other hand, required me to get drivers for the video card, WIFI, and a few other things to get all the hardware to work right. Then getting it how I like it took longer than I like and I had to visit multiple sites to get all my preferred software.
When I installed Nobara Linux on my younger sister’s old hand-me-down laptop, I spent more time trying to get the WiFi card working then I did installing the new SSD and operating system. And this is a distro focused on making Linux more “works out of the box” than Fedora (which it’s based on). This isn’t something she would have been able to figure out on her own. I switched the laptop from Windows 10 because of how slow it was, but slow is better than no Internet if you aren’t a tech nerd who can figure out what random ass commands to run to finally get WiFi working.
If you build your PC specifically for the purpose of using Linux it does work out of the box. I realize that’s a very specific use case though. AMD graphics just works, installing anything based on Ubuntu just works, if you download the Nvidia version of pop_os it just works. This out of the box excuse just doesn’t hold any water anymore.
My experience has been opposite. Ubuntu just works. On windows, you have to always fuck around with some 3rd party drivers, and using wierd hacks to even use unsigned drivers at all, be it a RTL-SDR, Android in debug mode, or a USB attached bitcoin miner…
The logitech wireless mouse works instantly on Ubuntu based distros. On windows, it has to install the driver, causing a sizable delay before it’s usable.