If you think its bullshit, you are free to think so. Now if you ask me to stop talking about it, no
If you think you made your point, i did not understand it.
Movements based on identity are identity movements, im sorry to tell you that. Thats not criticism, thats caracterization. If you think its bad to be called identitary, then its on you. Marxism is about class and class strugle, wich is based on economic positions. They are different things. Sometimes they agree, sometimes they dont
And you didnt read it correctly, or maybe i didnt made it clear enough. PCO disagreed with the researcher, who said Zumbi de Palmares was gay, but stood for his right to say so, even defending him when the black movement wanted him (the researcher) cersored
Still no proof of any of the claims you made, no matter how bold they were.
If you think you made your point, i did not understand it.
My point is that you are are being reactionary, which I stated multiple times already.
Movements based on identity are identity movements, im sorry to tell you that. Thats not criticism, thats caracterization. If you think its bad to be called identitary, then its on you.
Here you come with this bullshit again. What “identity”? It’s always you PCO people that comes with this claim, again diminishing the struggle of the oppressed throughout the decades. You want to oppose the rampant liberalism present in LGBT, Black and Feminist movements? Sure, that’s great, but don’t fucking belittle people and the movements while you’re at it.
Marxism is about class and class strugle, wich is based on economic positions. They are different things. Sometimes they agree, sometimes they dont
And what class do the majority of LGBT, Black and Women are again? What do they fight for, and what discrimination do they face and from whom? Their fight is part of the fight of the proletariat and should be front and center to the liberation of the working class.
And you didnt read it correctly, or maybe i didnt made it clear enough. PCO disagreed with the researcher, who said Zumbi de Palmares was gay, but stood for his right to say so, even defending him when the black movement wanted him (the researcher) cersored
You didn’t make it clear enough on the original comment. It made it seem like PCO stood by the homophobic guy. But since I couldn’t find anything about any of this, besides the claim that Zumbi could be gay, what are the sources for your claims? You’re painting the whole black movement as bad with the way you are wording this.
Still no proof of any of the claims you made, no matter how bold they were.
Can you say exactly what you want proof for?
My point is that you are are being reactionary, which I stated multiple times already
You think its reactionary, I dont. Im not reactionary for disagreeing with what you think.
You want to oppose the rampant liberalism present in LGBT, Black and Feminist movements? Sure, that’s great
So you agree with pco
but don’t fucking belittle people and the movements while you’re at it.
???
Their fight is part of the fight of the proletariat and should be front and center to the liberation of the working class.
I do agree that most of their fight goes hand in hand with proletarian causes, but no marxist in the world would claim thats the front and center of the cause. Marxists fight for the dictatorship of the proletariat, thats it
You’re painting the whole black movement as bad with the way you are wording this.
Im not painting anything. They were homophobic there. Does that make the “whole Black movement” bad? I dont think so. Most people are conservative, and even when someone is progressive in one area that doesnt make them immune to being reactionary in another. The world is full of contradictions.
Literally any claim that you made in your comments in this thread, which you made a bunch of.
???
You’re just being purposefully obtuse, I already said that by treating all these oppressed people’s struggles as “identity movements” you’re are belittling and being disrespectful, but you clearly don’t care. By labeling these struggles as “identity driven” you are using the same wording and tactics the alt right uses.
I do agree that most of their fight goes hand in hand with proletarian causes, but no marxist in the world would claim thats the front and center of the cause. Marxists fight for the dictatorship of the proletariat, thats it
I didn’t say it IS front and center, but that it SHOULD be at the forefront for any serious working class movement. Women, Black, LGBT and Indigenous liberation should be a focal point of any mass movement. There’s is literally no dissociating one from the other, these fights all go hand in hand when fighting capitalism and imperialism. But I’m repeating myself yet again.
Im not painting anything. They were homophobic there. Does that make the “whole Black movement” bad? I dont think so.
Yes, you are. The way you are wording this, which you just did again, is that the whole black movement is being homophobic, if that was not your intention, you should have pointed out where it started, by whom, and how the broad movement talked about it and approached it. I asked for proof and you provided none yet again.
This is gonna be my last comment here in this thread, I’m done having to repeat myself.
I disagree with you mostly. But as you stated, theres no point going on with this. I will just point one thing out.
I didn’t say it IS front and center, but that it SHOULD be at the forefront for any serious working class movement. Women, Black, LGBT and Indigenous liberation should be a focal point of any mass movement.
Thats your opinion and thats great. But the point of any marxist movement is to expropriate the means of production from the burguesie and build the dictatorship of the proletariat. You dont have to agree with that, fight for whatever you belive. But dont say that your opinion is what the marxist movement should do.
Thats your opinion and thats great. But the point of any marxist movement is to expropriate the means of production from the burguesie and build the dictatorship of the proletariat
Extremely funny how you hyper focus on these end goals while ignoring the countless amount of theory written by actual revolutionaries on how to progress towards these goals. Do you think communist insurgencies against occupiers happened purely out of poverty? You don’t think they took advantage of the power dynamic imbalance between the nationalities to mobilize the oppressed to kill in a war?
Do you think Hamas is killing Israeli occupiers because they care about the dictatorship of the proletariat and the means of production? No. They’re killing Israelis because they’re committing genocide against Palestinians. Everything else comes later, if at all. They call for Muslims and Arabs and anyone middle eastern to support them. They’re literally an Islamist militia which entails calling Muslims worldwide to physically fight against the enemy. And yet you support their struggle, but you delegitimize Brazilian minorities’ struggles if it’s not purely class. Why? Is it not identity politics? Is it not effective mobilization? Are Muslims the only people who are able to wield identity politics for their needs, or do you just not want to admit you don’t care much about the politics of minorities in your country?
The discussion yesterday was long and boring and the dude at the end was an ahole. So i will asnwer you shortly. I have nothing against the struggle of minorities, im all for it when its genuine, but at least in my country, most of the big/famous identity movements are totally liberal if not mouthpieces for the CIA. If you want to see a recent case Google about the “Black woman in the supreme court”. Tldr: they wanted a Black woman in the supreme court, but turns out all the people they indicated were pro coup. They even put ads in Mumbai and Times Square. Do you really believe its genuine? Do you think it was the garbage collectors (who are mostly non-white here) association who put it out there? Or the prople from the slums? And in the current political situation here, any movement that presents itself as a struggle of minorities but dont talk about class, do not have my confidence
Do you think Hamas is killing Israeli occupiers because they care about the dictatorship of the proletariat and the means of production?
Afaik they are not marxists, i would be surprised if it was their goal. But they fight against imperialism and so they are on the same side of the communists
I do agree that most of their fight goes hand in hand with proletarian causes, but no marxist in the world would claim thats the front and center of the cause. Marxists fight for the dictatorship of the proletariat, thats it
Fighting involves getting people to your side. You don’t do that by shitting on people’s grievances. Even Lenin said that while class struggle is the ultimate conflict, it is not the only conflict you can or should use to mobilize people. People are oppressed by different things, and it’s not always apparent that class is the constant. You address their grievances and have solidarity, foster belonging in your movement, and you fight the enemy.
Why do you think capitalists are so effective at this? They have no morals. They’ll fund neo Nazis while waving a rainbow flag. But they succeed because they address the grievances of each side, real or perceived, and promise each side a “better future” even if they contradict each other. If you can’t even acknowledge someone’s identity being real and a legitimate target by the right, then you’ll never succeed. It’s organizing 101.
Are you familiar with the Black Panthers in the US? They were considered the most dangerous group in the US because they were black communists. They mobilized black people through shared experiences of being victimized by white racists, but that wasn’t the end goal. Once they were engaged with the group, they would start educating them on the history of colonization and class struggle. They would also reach out to other groups, including white people, using class struggle as the foundation. This was extremely dangerous because oppressed people from all sorts of backgrounds were uniting, but this was done after identity politics were used to form shared interest groups. They were infiltrated and assassinated by the FBI.
I agree that the capitalists infiltrate identity based groups to foster division, but they also do it with literally everything. There are so many splits and spin off communist organizations, many of which are intelligence operations. You’re not safe just because you want to “focus on class.” All you’re doing is limiting yourself the pool of supporters.
If you think its bullshit, you are free to think so. Now if you ask me to stop talking about it, no
If you think you made your point, i did not understand it.
Movements based on identity are identity movements, im sorry to tell you that. Thats not criticism, thats caracterization. If you think its bad to be called identitary, then its on you. Marxism is about class and class strugle, wich is based on economic positions. They are different things. Sometimes they agree, sometimes they dont
And you didnt read it correctly, or maybe i didnt made it clear enough. PCO disagreed with the researcher, who said Zumbi de Palmares was gay, but stood for his right to say so, even defending him when the black movement wanted him (the researcher) cersored
Still no proof of any of the claims you made, no matter how bold they were.
My point is that you are are being reactionary, which I stated multiple times already.
Here you come with this bullshit again. What “identity”? It’s always you PCO people that comes with this claim, again diminishing the struggle of the oppressed throughout the decades. You want to oppose the rampant liberalism present in LGBT, Black and Feminist movements? Sure, that’s great, but don’t fucking belittle people and the movements while you’re at it.
And what class do the majority of LGBT, Black and Women are again? What do they fight for, and what discrimination do they face and from whom? Their fight is part of the fight of the proletariat and should be front and center to the liberation of the working class.
You didn’t make it clear enough on the original comment. It made it seem like PCO stood by the homophobic guy. But since I couldn’t find anything about any of this, besides the claim that Zumbi could be gay, what are the sources for your claims? You’re painting the whole black movement as bad with the way you are wording this.
Can you say exactly what you want proof for?
You think its reactionary, I dont. Im not reactionary for disagreeing with what you think.
So you agree with pco
???
I do agree that most of their fight goes hand in hand with proletarian causes, but no marxist in the world would claim thats the front and center of the cause. Marxists fight for the dictatorship of the proletariat, thats it
Im not painting anything. They were homophobic there. Does that make the “whole Black movement” bad? I dont think so. Most people are conservative, and even when someone is progressive in one area that doesnt make them immune to being reactionary in another. The world is full of contradictions.
Literally any claim that you made in your comments in this thread, which you made a bunch of.
You’re just being purposefully obtuse, I already said that by treating all these oppressed people’s struggles as “identity movements” you’re are belittling and being disrespectful, but you clearly don’t care. By labeling these struggles as “identity driven” you are using the same wording and tactics the alt right uses.
I didn’t say it IS front and center, but that it SHOULD be at the forefront for any serious working class movement. Women, Black, LGBT and Indigenous liberation should be a focal point of any mass movement. There’s is literally no dissociating one from the other, these fights all go hand in hand when fighting capitalism and imperialism. But I’m repeating myself yet again.
Yes, you are. The way you are wording this, which you just did again, is that the whole black movement is being homophobic, if that was not your intention, you should have pointed out where it started, by whom, and how the broad movement talked about it and approached it. I asked for proof and you provided none yet again.
This is gonna be my last comment here in this thread, I’m done having to repeat myself.
I disagree with you mostly. But as you stated, theres no point going on with this. I will just point one thing out.
Thats your opinion and thats great. But the point of any marxist movement is to expropriate the means of production from the burguesie and build the dictatorship of the proletariat. You dont have to agree with that, fight for whatever you belive. But dont say that your opinion is what the marxist movement should do.
Extremely funny how you hyper focus on these end goals while ignoring the countless amount of theory written by actual revolutionaries on how to progress towards these goals. Do you think communist insurgencies against occupiers happened purely out of poverty? You don’t think they took advantage of the power dynamic imbalance between the nationalities to mobilize the oppressed to kill in a war?
Do you think Hamas is killing Israeli occupiers because they care about the dictatorship of the proletariat and the means of production? No. They’re killing Israelis because they’re committing genocide against Palestinians. Everything else comes later, if at all. They call for Muslims and Arabs and anyone middle eastern to support them. They’re literally an Islamist militia which entails calling Muslims worldwide to physically fight against the enemy. And yet you support their struggle, but you delegitimize Brazilian minorities’ struggles if it’s not purely class. Why? Is it not identity politics? Is it not effective mobilization? Are Muslims the only people who are able to wield identity politics for their needs, or do you just not want to admit you don’t care much about the politics of minorities in your country?
The discussion yesterday was long and boring and the dude at the end was an ahole. So i will asnwer you shortly. I have nothing against the struggle of minorities, im all for it when its genuine, but at least in my country, most of the big/famous identity movements are totally liberal if not mouthpieces for the CIA. If you want to see a recent case Google about the “Black woman in the supreme court”. Tldr: they wanted a Black woman in the supreme court, but turns out all the people they indicated were pro coup. They even put ads in Mumbai and Times Square. Do you really believe its genuine? Do you think it was the garbage collectors (who are mostly non-white here) association who put it out there? Or the prople from the slums? And in the current political situation here, any movement that presents itself as a struggle of minorities but dont talk about class, do not have my confidence
Afaik they are not marxists, i would be surprised if it was their goal. But they fight against imperialism and so they are on the same side of the communists
Fighting involves getting people to your side. You don’t do that by shitting on people’s grievances. Even Lenin said that while class struggle is the ultimate conflict, it is not the only conflict you can or should use to mobilize people. People are oppressed by different things, and it’s not always apparent that class is the constant. You address their grievances and have solidarity, foster belonging in your movement, and you fight the enemy.
Why do you think capitalists are so effective at this? They have no morals. They’ll fund neo Nazis while waving a rainbow flag. But they succeed because they address the grievances of each side, real or perceived, and promise each side a “better future” even if they contradict each other. If you can’t even acknowledge someone’s identity being real and a legitimate target by the right, then you’ll never succeed. It’s organizing 101.
Are you familiar with the Black Panthers in the US? They were considered the most dangerous group in the US because they were black communists. They mobilized black people through shared experiences of being victimized by white racists, but that wasn’t the end goal. Once they were engaged with the group, they would start educating them on the history of colonization and class struggle. They would also reach out to other groups, including white people, using class struggle as the foundation. This was extremely dangerous because oppressed people from all sorts of backgrounds were uniting, but this was done after identity politics were used to form shared interest groups. They were infiltrated and assassinated by the FBI.
I agree that the capitalists infiltrate identity based groups to foster division, but they also do it with literally everything. There are so many splits and spin off communist organizations, many of which are intelligence operations. You’re not safe just because you want to “focus on class.” All you’re doing is limiting yourself the pool of supporters.