cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/10713383
Polls have also shown Biden’s support slipping among Black and ethnic minority voters, who helped drive his 2020 election win against Trump.
Analysts say Biden’s best hope now is a simple but quite specific number: that wages continue to rise faster than prices as they have done since April of last year, allowing consumers to feel that their wallets are fuller.
Still rather vote for him than the wanna be dictator. It’s shitty, and who knows maybe the Dems will primary someone decent.
But if the choice is “generally shitty typical politician who isn’t actively telling us how he’s going to destroy our country” vs “I’m going to destroy our country and prosecute my enemies illegally and rip out long term federal employees and replace them with folks loyal to me who will let me be a dictator, and btw I’m saying this out loud all the time”…
It’s still not a hard choice to vote for a fucking wet paper bag over trump , even a wet paper bag who is not doing the best job and is supporting questionable international policies.
Please remember they’re not the same type of bad. One is run of the mill politician bad, one is literally telling us how he plans on ripping our country’s founding principles to shreds.
First they came for the communists… Condoning genocide along with Biden allows for future atrocities. What happened to ‘push him left?’
What happened to ‘push him left?’
it was a lie. that day never came because there’s only one reliable mechanism to do it and it’s the one we’re told decade after decade we aren’t allowed to use, vote for someone else
Yup in a binary choice picking the pointless third option is the secret. Reality hates this one simple trick.
if everyone did it we’d win
No, no you misheard it’s actually “slowly go further right or else the right might win”.
Why eventually if you keep voting for the lesser of two evils enough, we’ll have made so many small turns to the right that we’ve come full circle and end up on the left.
It’s genius really, vote blue no matter what and we won’t end up in a situation like this where the Overton window is so shifted to the right that people like Trump can win an election.
At the end of the day as long as “nothing would fundamentally change“ you’ll be on track to fixing this mess.
The obvious answer is ranked voting. But that’s another discussion
It’s an improvement, but without an educated and politically engaged public it doesn’t make much of a difference.
People would be more engaged if they felt their vote mattered.
if trump wins it will be 100% because the democrats chose to run a shitty candidate that didn’t encourage turnout among less engaged voters. and before you yell at me biden fans, those less engaged voters aren’t in this thread, or indeed any politics thread. they’re the ones who barely ever show up to vote in the first place. two shitty candidates = they don’t care enough to register or wait hours in line, and you gotta go out and get their votes to win. it’s just politics
Exactly what was said by the folks that sat on their asses in 2016.
did you learn from the mistakes of 2016 or are you gonna make them again? by the way, I voted in 2016, something the majority of people my age didn’t do
Please remember they’re not the same type of bad.
Who is saying they are?
I’m just worried that we’ll have a repeat of voter apathy because the Dems present a really not great candidate again and folks don’t show up and allow the dangerous nut jobs elect in their wannabe dictator.
That said, I 100% agree that folks should be pushing and demanding better from our elected officials so keep voicing and pushing your concerns!
But why is this the only choice? If the alternative is a complete fascist, wouldn’t it make sense for the Dems to run a real progressive?
Honestly? Because most of the country isn’t ready for a true progressive candidate. Run someone middle of the road and the conservatives (or moderate leaning right) who aren’t stupid will possibly go across the party line and vote for them, they run someone too progressive and those folks either don’t show up at all or vote trump because it’s “better than the crazy commie”.
I really disagree with the idea of 2 extreme candidates from either side anyways. Ranked choice is what we need.
Genocide is usually a line people don’t want to cross or co-sign. If he doesn’t want that tag line attached him, he could course correct and do better before he ends up handing victory to Trump.
Won’t be Biden handing the keys to fascists, just like it wasn’t Clinton that did so.
Clinton defeated the only candidate she was interested in defeating in 2016.
She didn’t defeat anyone, DNC did all her dirty work.
repeatedly discredited propaganda based upon exclusively Russian documents claimed to be from the DNC. Which was exactly the same scam as Hunter laptop that was never a laptop and only a copy of a hard drive with PDFs of emails provided by Rudy’s KGB pals.
"I knew—everybody knew—that this was not a fair deal.” Harry Ried July 2016
“On behalf of everyone at the DNC, we want to offer a deep and sincere apology to Senator Sanders, his supporters, and the entire Democratic Party for the inexcusable remarks made over email,” - Donna Brazile
I know I always apologize for my debunked email leaks. Stop trying to excuse shitty behavior by rewriting history.
based upon exclusively Russian documents claimed to be from the DNC.
Homie you have got to hit me with that sauce
Clinton literally backed trump in the primary.
Clinton supporters can rejoice that they got Clinton’s first choice in 2016.
Do you fools have any idea how Primaries work?
Abuse and gaslighting: because centrists have nothing else.
a mod was gaslighting me earlier. the propaganda is insidious.
I like watching you guys tho. Good to see some sanity amongst all the bile
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Enjoy how enlightened you are while in line for the concentration camps.
I’m concerned about 2024. So many voters were asked to hold our nose and vote for conservative Joe Biden, but he’s made it harder and harder to do.
He started off on the wrong foot by opening more concentration camps and sending his VP on an embarrassing gaslighting mission to Latin America, and it has just continued to get worse since then.
My expectations were already abysmally low to begin with, but even I didn’t have “openly supporting a genocidal state” on my bingo card.
I think I still need to vote for him because of Republicans, but my God it will be hard to live with myself after I do.
I think I still need to vote for him because of Republicans, but my God it will be hard to live with myself after I do.
This sentence will be ignored by combative centrist genocide apologists. Just wanted to let you know that you’re not alone.
Thank you for this.
No, no, you’ll be able to smugly hold your moral superiority over the others in the concentration camps after enough folks stay home because of all the baseless BS being spewed.
This sentence will be ignored by combative centrist genocide apologists.
I summoned one.
Appears thou doth protest too much.
You lot cost us Female Bodily Autonomy with your last immature tantrum. If you succeed this time, there likely won’t be another opportunity for you to learn the lesson you ignored from 2016.
But don’t let that stop you. Hold your breath until you get your way. Just as effective.
I voted for Clinton in 2016. I voted for Biden in 2020, and I intend to vote for Biden in 2024.
Do you have any other incorrect assumptions to make about me because I don’t support genocide as hard as you want me to?
Which is a pretty damn good predictor that he’s going to lose. Nobody wins an election by everyone sighing and saying “fuck guess we gotta vote for them,” just look at Hillary. DNC is once again shrugging their shoulders and saying “we’ve tried nothing and are all out of ideas,” so guess it’s on the U.S. people to save democracy. They’ve got a real…great track record.
we’re gonna have to save democracy without the democrat’s help, which isn’t an issue because they were part of the problem to begin with
I think I still need to vote for him because of Republicans, but my God it will be hard to live with myself after I do.
Don’t be hard on yourself for making the correct decision.
If someone tells you that you have swallow stale lima beans or horse shit and you pick the stale lima beans in hopes that you never have to do it again… well it sucks but those were the choices. If 4 years later you have to do the same thing again… well you do it, because eating stale lima beans is always going to be better than eating horse shit, and you’re going to have to eat one of them.
You don’t have to feel like the lima beans are your choice, your preference, or your fault or responsibility. They were one of two choices available, and you made the right one.
I’m old, and I’ve been eating stale lima beans all my life.
In 2008, I was finally promised a meal, and I even campaigned for it. But it turned out to be more stale lima beans.
This stale lima bean routine is wearing thin.
I hear you man.
But still, if it goes on for 50 more years, would it ever be better to choose to eat a horse’s shit over stale lima beans? Of course not.
We need to change the menu. But that’s a different problem.
The question of whether to pick lima beans or horse shit is an easy one, and one that nobody should find controversial. And you should not feel bad for making the right decision there. Remember, your kids and neighbors have to eat whatever meal you choose too.
We need to change the menu.
We need to change the whole fucking restaurant tbh
Remember, your kids and neighbors have to eat whatever meal you choose too.
And I do too. I’m not far removed from this. My husband is a first-gen immigrant, I’m gay, I have family being detained by our fascist state, and family who are trans. I don’t know if I have the privilege to keep serving them stale lima beans, when the stale lima beans are slowly killing them. I desperately need a new meal.
I don’t know if I have the privilege to keep serving them stale lima beans, when the stale lima beans are slowly killing them. I desperately need a new meal.
You have an obligation to do that, until there’s a better choice.
In the meantime, we work on changing the restaurant. But until we do that, don’t feel guilty at all about choosing the better of two options!
Last time Trump got elected everyone got off their ass next time.
Maybe it’s time to take the nasty medicine to cure the disease.
The disease is the entire state and system.
Last time everyone had to eat horse shit they stepped up the time after that.
If no one’s smart enough to step up this time and bring a worthy candidate, then bring on the horse shit.
Maybe trump two electric Boogaloo will make everyone change their mind next time and wise up
Yikes. That’s some bizarre logic. You’d actually choose to eat horse shit because maybe next time you won’t have to eat horse shit, when you could just not eat horse shit now.
I don’t think we can communicate on any meaningful level when you’re this fundamentally irrational.
No I would rather force everyone to eat horseshit that way maybe they will put different options on the menu next time.
If you are going to use a metaphor follow it through
I didn’t lose the metaphor. You just took it for a turn I didn’t expect.
I was actually giving you the benefit of the doubt that you’re not a horrible person, but here you are straight up saying, in your own words, that you’d rather eat horse shit than lima beans, and you’d rather force your children, your loved ones, and your neighbors to eat horse shit than lima beans too.
I was expecting that you’d have some amount of empathy and the sense to eat actually food over something that could make you extremely sick or kill you. But you don’t. So as I said above, I don’t think we can communicate on any meaningful level. You are completely irrational and lacking in empathy, and we don’t value the same things.
Imagine comparing supporting genocide to something as nutritious as lima beans.
Imagine using an analogy to illustrate the difference between two choices.
It seems you can’t.
Lima beans are good for you and nourishing (and I find them delicious.)
If genocide nourishes you, that would explain why you’re so upset at people who don’t want it to happen.
I just pointed out how you’re unable to understand an analogy. You don’t need to provide more proof of that.
If you don’t want people pointing out how your analogy is crap, don’t make a crap analogy.
This is the correct mind set as it really is a binary.
imagine if the republicans ran like democrats. would you switch to voting for a supposedly pro-choice pro-gay moderate republican? no? why are we told to expect the opposite, especially from a more propagandized group of voters?
And yet it feels like they really do have us over the fire, and the best they can do is call us Russian trolls and tell us to cope. That’s the best they have to offer.
Meanwhile, I have friends and loved ones being detained, deported, or worse – and they call me privileged if I complain about it.
I’ve literally been accused of de facto voting for Trump even when I disclose that I voted for genocide Joe. It’s cultlike and weird.
It’s cultlike and weird.
it is. I think they’re just scared and clinging to “vote blue no matter who” as a security blanket while the party acts like controlled opposition. I wonder what they’ll think when their strategy loses.
They’ll blame us, again. They’ll blame leftists and progressives for not voting for their next bad candidate
Because the alternative is fascists taking over. They’ll think the same thing we all thought in 2017 when a bunch of clueless fools bought the “both sides” Russian propaganda.
Lemmy is insanely loaded with said fools, literally every political thread is astroturfed with them.
Unfortunately America is a two-party system, it’s baked into how the voting works. Occasionally the identity of which two parties are the two parties changes, but not very often.
However, that doesn’t mean that there are only two possible candidates for presidency. The time when it’s “safe” to vote for a third-party candidate is during the primary elections. Incumbents like Biden still have a huge advantage in those situations but even so it’s a time when protest votes can be cast without harming the end result.
I’m not sure how this relates to my comment, and it feels like a deflection from my point. Can you explain how it relates?
it’s just a lie from someone who actually wants the right wing policies of joe biden and doesn’t want you to disrupt that
They explained a bit more in a follow-up, and I think I may have misinterpreted them, but yeah … I’m a bit raw about it, considering the unhinged rant a lemmy.world mod brought into this thread earlier! I think a lot of Democrats are just politer Republicans who want to dupe us into thinking they’re actually leftists, and they get super angry when we see the wizard behind the curtain.
I think a lot of Democrats are just politer Republicans who want to dupe us into thinking they’re actually leftists, and they get super angry when we see the wizard behind the curtain.
my thoughts exactly, especially when “moderate” democrats win and just continue the worst policies of their republican predecessors. politics doesn’t just happen ad teh ballot box and we should de-emphasize electoralism as it becomes increasingly useless at stopping fascism
I still vote, but I totally understand why people are disillusioned of the system.
The whole state is rotten. Always has been. We desperately need a real systemic change.
Some people can acknowledge the fact that we are currently stuck with FPTP without throwing tantrums that leads to far right wing policies instead of conservative joe
It was meant to build on your point, not deflect. You were lamenting about how people have to hold their noses and vote for Biden because the only other viable choice is worse. I was pointing out that there are opportunities to vote for who you “really” want, just not necessarily in the presidential election itself.
The Democrats will likely still run Biden because of the incumbency thing, but it’s at least an opportunity to vote your conscience and nudge the party itself in a better direction.
Oh yeah, I fully agree! Unfortunately, the vast majority of voters in the US are right-wing. Even our Democratic voter base is overwhelmingly pro-capitalist/neoliberal. So many people brainwashed into voting against their interests. It’s genuinely tragic.
And according to this thread letting literal fascists take over is the best solution. But yeah, it is the folks voting against cult45 that are voting against their best interests, sure dude.
I’m sure it doesn’t matter to the people being deported and detained in those concentration camps, nor to the Palestinians being murdered by a genocidal state.
Ted Bundy was extremely polite, by all accounts, but no matter how many good acts you commit, if you’re committing atrocities on the side, you’re still a villain – and when the choice is perpetually between a far-right party (Democrats) and full-blown fascists (Republicans), how long before we admit that we have an absolute dogshit system, and that we need to replace it?
And there is that good ol’ pure bull shit we all knew was going to pop up from those actually wanting cult45 to take over.
Democrats are really down bad, huh
Guys I’m a socialist, calm down
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Removed, rule 3.
and you’re handing the election to trump
Please look up Socialism, 'cause it doesn’t mean what you think it means.
It’s like these people don’t realize that unconditional US support for Israel has been the norm for the past forty fucking years, and that Biden is not only not at the top of the ‘supporting Israel’s genocide’ list, he’s actually probably at the bottom as far as presidents these past 40 years go. And if the Palestinian genocide only just interests you now, well, you’ve clearly not been paying fucking attention.
He has the same ability to cut money and arms off if he wanted to like Reagan did. But being the highest recipient of JStreet lobby money they paid their dues and are now getting rewarded by him.
He has the same ability to cut money and arms off if he wanted to like Reagan did.
That would require the mOsT pRoGrEsSiVe PrEsIdEnT sInCe FdR to be left of Ronald Reagan on the subject of genocide.
He’s to the right of Reagan, like he was as senator, on nearly every issue.
These clowns pretend like Joe Biden isn’t doing what every other US politician and potential presidential candidate would be doing.
It’s appalling, yes, and we should fight back against it. But to pretend like this is somehow unique to Biden shows a complete lack of awareness of US politics.
It’s appalling, yes, and we should fight back against it.
But you’ll compare it to lima beans and scold anyone who does.
Yes. Because you’re a clown if you think Trump would be better.
And there it is yet again. The assumption that anyone who isn’t on board with supporting genocide must be a Trump supporter.
No. I’m voting for Biden. But Biden should not be supporting genocide, and I resent being placed in a position where my options are “genocide” and “more genocide” and being scolded by people who are happy with it.
I resent being placed in a position where my options are “genocide” and “more genocide”
So do we all. But that doesn’t change the facts of the scenario.
being scolded by people who are happy with it.
And now you’re being dishonest.
So do we all.
I honestly don’t believe for an instant that a person who would compare people who are in any way upset about genocide to petulant children who won’t eat their veggies dislikes genocide in any way.
Biden should not be supporting genocide. Two of the people in this thread that you’re scolding are voting for him already and you don’t care. You just want people to support genocide for its own sake.
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Uh… Reagan did better. MFing Reagan.
So are you voting for Reagan this year?
paid protester hacks getting paid to yell a bunch of bullshit… actors getting paid by the Republicans…
Got a source on that?
you need a lot of help, don’t you
Hitchens’s razor - “what can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence.”
useless pedantry for its own sake
It’s not useless. You’re accusing activists of being paid astroturfers. Yes, that has happened in the past, there is no evidence of that happening here.
When you make an assertion like that, it’s common sense to ask for evidence, if you have none then that invalidates your argument.
Centrists can’t defend Biden’s support for genocide because they know it’s indefensible. So they make wild accusations instead.
See bullet point #1 in the chart above.
You could just admit you don’t have a source and that you’re making shit up. No need to make veiled insults or gaslight.
Are they wrong though?
If this is all it takes to derail his campaign, well he’s done it entirely to himself here.
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Removed, rule 3.
lol no. the right won’t touch the term genocide joe because they support the genocide too
But they are fine with drumming up the naive gullible fools by posting and hollering it. Hint: cult45 doesn’t give a rats ass about Israel. They are only in it for the second coming.
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Children, morons, and disingenuous cretins. Some are all three.
I don’t think Biden should be supporting Netanyahu’s genocide. Which one am I?
On the side of full of shit as Biden does not support Nyet n’ Yahoo’s Genocide but in fact is doing what little he can to prevent worse.
Biden is selling Netanyahu the weapons he’s using to carry out genocide. That’s support.
Nope, that’s business, diplomacy, and the only reason we have any leverage at all. Which coincidentally is the only reason the first cease fire occurred and the only reason any aid is getting into the prisoners in Israel’s concentration camps.
You were on point until the end. Don’t insult other users. Removed under rule 3.
This … is a lemmy.world mod engaging in hostile incitement of flame wars and unhinged personal attacks. Appalling.
Sorry for pointing out the obvious, lmao.
You’re attacking people who are on your side, and this upcoming election is too important for this type of behavior, don’t you think?
Also, an argument based on appeal to tradition is no argument at all. Slavery used to be the norm, openly opposing equity for women and LGBT+ people has been the norm.
These are no longer acceptable in 2023, nor should they be; nor is supporting the genocidal state of Israel. If people have just woken up to that, then good for them – this progress should be praised and encouraged.
These are not “morons” or “children” or … whatever else you called them/us. (I’m so disgusted with your incivility and abuse of power, as well as your discarding the opinions of large swaths of empathetic voters, that quite frankly I can’t be assed to re-read that comment.)
You’re attacking people who are on your side, and this upcoming election is too important for this type of behavior, don’t you think?
Sorry, I don’t play civility politics with “BOTH SIDES” types who spend all their time talking about how voting is worthless but they’re totally going to vote for Biden, if only everyone else is nice to them and doesn’t object to them passing around intellectually bankrupt talking points.
Also, an argument based on appeal to tradition is no argument at all. Slavery used to be the norm, openly opposing equity for women and LGBT+ people has been the norm.
You either don’t understand the argument or don’t understand what an appeal to tradition is. The argument is not “This is old, therefore, it is good”, the argument is “This is not new; Biden is not the architect of this policy, this is not a split-second decision that we can just reverse, this is a longstanding policy of the US that would take wide consensus to change”
These are no longer acceptable in 2023, nor should they be; nor is supporting the genocidal state of Israel. If people have just woken up to that, then good for them – this progress should be praised and encouraged.
“These are no longer acceptable”, only public opinion polls in the US and abroad show that’s absolutely not true. And if you’ve just ‘woken up’ to this, then it’s pretty fucking important that you understand that other people are still asleep, and, like you, will take time to wake up, rather than passing around “GENOCIDE JOE” cliches.
These are not “morons” or “children” or … whatever else you called them/us. (I’m so disgusted with your incivility and abuse of power, as well as your discarding the opinions of large swaths of empathetic voters, that quite frankly I can’t be assed to re-read that comment.)
“Abuse of power is when someone says something, and the more I disagree with it, the more abuse it is”?
“Abuse of power is when someone says something, and the more I disagree with it, the more abuse it is”?
More like when you engage in unhinged personal attacks and rules violations to the point that a more effective mod has to treat you like a delicate young child and remove your comments.
Two of us have said we plan to vote for genocide-supporting concentration-camp building Joe, but that’s not good enough for you, is it? If we criticize him for his fascist-aligning genocide-supporting words and deeds, Big Bad Mod Daddy will piss his pants in the thread.
I have utterly no respect for you. Blocked.
Lmao, why are you so obsessed with the fact that I’m a mod for other magazines?
And how’d it work out for the Pres. that ended Slavery again, I forget?
Don’t see how this is relevant
Shocking.
Were Biden stupid enough to follow your advice to not worry about “the norm” as you put it, the same results. The only way to get actual change without disastrous consequences is to build popular, ie not a tiny minority of a very very few, support. Cutting ties with Israel both removes all our influence and assures a much larger blow back by the far larger number of folks that would view it as a betrayal. Voting third party is a waste of time until there is ranked choice or some similar. Not Voting to teach the Dems a lesson gets us another round of every more disastrous results. In 2016 this exact same idiocy resulted in the loss of Women’s Bodily Autonomy.
But the naive morally superior fools, provided they are not just shrubbery like the source of most of the talking points, in this thread would simply remove more protections for more minority groups.
Well, I mean you remember him as the president that ended slavery, if that wasn’t the most impressive thing about him then you probably have said said president who got shot in the theater by that actor
Aww, him can’t handle truth.
I expect the president to get with the times, especially during a major world event and human rights catastrophe. the voter base he’s going for supports israel less and less and the trend is downwards
The Voter base you think cares is far short of what would be lost if he didn’t support Israel.
