Ok, so give us your plan to stop billions of people from buying cars, clothes and cola.
I, personally, would love to hear it.
As a consumer, i cant find ways to make the products i buy cause less environmental damage and i cant just stop buying clothes, and theres only one place to buy them
or food. And i can only get that from one place.
I cant suddenly not own a car, or else how do i get to work? Public transport isnt an option where i live. and i dont have a choice in how that car is made.
There are alternatives out there for all of these but they are significantly more expensive and i already live on a tight budget and cant afford to suddenly increase my spending.
If you cant see how that traps consumers and the change has to come from above then you are lost
Also theres nothing ‘mythical’ about the companies that produce 70% of the emmisions.
Thats not even the point of the argument. We are expected to separate our waste into special bins or buy electric cars (soooo expensive) or produce less waste and reduce our individual emmisions but its pointless. we can only affect 30% of the global emissions and ee wont get our individual emmisions to zero so it wont even be 30% reduced if we make all the changes we need to.
This isnt an us or them situation, companies need to be held accountable for their emissions and be forced to reduce them. They will always follow the money, consumers will get used to whatever options they are given.
I feel like bikes are a good alternative to cars. At least to address one of your points about getting to work. Even an ebike has far less total emissions than a car… Assuming people actually use them instead of just leaving it in the garage
I appreciate that i could be a fringe case hut an ebike would turn my 30-50minute commute into 1-1.4 hour journey along a dangerous road with no cycle lanes or pavement for 90% of the journey.
This would work for alot of people but not for me unfortunately
Just like all other environmental legislation Chinese imports will just fill the void. They use mostly coal.
What if alternatives for heavy emitters like steel and concrete producers do not exist at this time… Just dictating targets might be unproductive.
Companies emissions are exclusively to provide you the consume with goods and services. Companies will respond to the marker dictated by the consumer. Really we are also driving the 70%…
Companies will respond to the marker dictated by the consumer.
This is a lie that you’ve been told by econ 101. Companies will manipulate the markets through lobbying and anticompetitive behaviours so that the consumer has no other choice.
For instance, the suburbs are not a natural outworking of market desires, they are mandated by legislation that prevents medium rise and high density urban development, which necessitates cars and also massively overloads the roads so you have terrible traffic.
This wasn’t a natural outworking of a market, but a deliberate push by capitalists to destroy public transit, build more roads, and lock you the consumer into a world in which you actually do not have any choice. This, not coincidentally, also creates the most wasteful possible way to organise our cities and transport ourselves - individualised cars and dwellings with enormous demands on space. More wasteful systems are as a rule better for capitalists because they create the largest possible market for consumables and redundant equipment.
Yeah if you want to fix zoning to increase density that’s a local government issue. I personally like having a car and large house outside of the city. I’m absolutely in support of government fixing multi residential zoning … Would have loved better options when I was younger. I’m sure a lot of developers would gladly respond to those market forces if given the option … Do you think it’s nimbys preventing that or capitalists?
We live under capitalism. That means, explicitly, that capital has all the power. To the extent nimbyism is a real problem that’s because it’s been stoked by capitalist propaganda and fueled by the artificial fear that their property prices will go down. Homeowners have been taught to think in those terms rather than about what will actually affect their quality of life because the nuance-flattening logic of the market permeates our thinking.
You show me a single home owner who’s enthusiastic about having a large multi-unit built next door … I wouldn’t be happy personally.
If you think capital has all the power look at TC energy’s keystone pipeline. Look at LNG facility approval in Canada. No shortage of capital there but those projects are dead.
If there’s demand for something (housing) markets will solve that problem you just get out of the way and let them. Capitalists would love to sell the same acre of developed realeatate to more than one person. Remember - they’re greedy.
What an absolutely wild example to cite for your argument. The Keystone pipeline is a perfect example of how capital and the state have all of the institutional power. Protestors have lived on site for years, being brutalised by thugs working for the state on behalf of capital. They have given up enormous chunks of their lives, meanwhile the execs and politicians organising their brutalisation do it with meetings and emails. Only after years of disruptive action will the state finally step in to change something, and even then the story isn’t over.
It is an awful project that illegally siezed land and is devastating to the environment both locally and globally, but fossil fuel companies want to make money so the state will defend their bullshit until it becomes obvious that it’s a complete wash.
People power works, but it is an uphill fight against entrenched power structures.
If there’s demand for something (housing) markets will solve that problem you just get out of the way and let them.
This is just an article of faith. The invisible hand of the market is the capitalist replacement for the divine right of kings and I am yet to see any examples of it really working. I’ve explained how it’s not the case but you don’t seem to feel any need to rebut anything I’ve said, you’re just repeating your beliefs as if that means anything. I mean, cool opinion but you’re not really making an argument.
And anyway, if you really believed this then you would support the removal of restrictive zoning laws, which is one of the main things I would advocate to start addressing this problem.
Yeah pipelines cause harm … But moving petroleum freight and truck is better? I have a pipeline across my property… After construction its just a cleared path essentially. There’s the risk of a spill of course but look at some of the rail disasters or oil tanker incidents … The oil and gas are being moved for you and me … we all use it and if love alternatives that work but we aren’t there yet.
I’m not sure how we got turned around on removing zoning restrictions … I agree that’s helpful. Yes the invisible hand of the market … What’s the first word there? Look at all of the products you enjoy… How they came to be… People in the west are so lucky and have it so good and all they do is complain.
Anyway let’s agree to disagree. When people power starts actually providing food electricity and transportation I’ll see it as working …
I mean we already disagree on stuff, that’s just reality. I will explain the parts I agree with though. I agree that personal consumptive action is not only minimally effective but also not really possible. I am advocating for collective political action to remove the irrational ways our economy demands ever expanding growth and emmissions just to satisfy a shrinking minority of shareholders.
I think the messages in these images that imply you as a driver are to blame are wrong in that respect. The ones telling you what’s wrong with cars are pretty good. I think the general attitude of the fuckcars community is that we need systemic change. A better message than the personal ones might be, “our city forces us to drive”, or “traffic jams are expensive”, both highlighting the burden that car-centric infrastructure imposes on you.
If you want to see people power working to create something, look at the Zapatistas or Rojava where they’ve displaced their states and rely on horizontalist power to do everything. Even within a capitalist state you can achieve this - look at the Cooperation movement. There are places like Cooperation Jackson or Cooperation Tulsa in the US.
I mentioned zoning restrictions because car-centric suburbs are basically mandated in huge parts of the US, where it sounds like you’re from. In fact if you really like the suburbs, then making low-rise high-density urban environments that are walkable with good public transit and a minimal accommodation for car traffic will draw a lot of people out of the suburbs and make them quieter and reduce traffic. The suburbs, and driving in them, would get better - this is a win-win.
Also though if you saw how nice walkable urban environments could be, you might change your mind over time. Not Just Bikes on youtube does a great job laying this out.
This is a good place to start that makes the case that better options for non-car travel makes car travel better: https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k
Now, I don’t know if I can address your conviction that a “free market” - a contradiction in terms imo - will work, except to ask you when a free market has ever existed and done what you say it will, in your opinion. I don’t like state domination of our lives, but it is possible to collectively plan society without any overarching ruler telling us what to do, and without resorting to markets. In fact, I’d say it’s necessary, because both of those things flatten the incomprehensible complexity of society down to numbers that ignore real human needs.
I have some nice stuff, sure, but the market didn’t supply those things. It gatekept them and keeps everyone in a constant state of vigilance lest they slip and lose their tenuous hold on the imaginary tokens that decide who eats and who doesn’t. I’d rather have less personal property and more communal security. I also would rather all of the things I consume to not be blood-drenched. Like if I could trade having a mobile phone for all of the children that are forced to mine coltan being free and cared for properly, then I’d do it in a second. I don’t have that choice though, because consumer power barely exists. If you wouldn’t make that trade then that’s a matter between you and your god.
Edit: Also about the pipeline thing, the solution is to remove our dependence on fossil fuels, not build more infrastructure to enable it. Our society has an addiction to fossil fuels. The withdrawals will hurt but the alternative is a slow, painful death.
How bout making government accountable for the people instead of relying on a state machine that consistently needing funds from the lobbying? We have to utilise our collective power to enforce our will onto the goverment, isn’t that how democracy works? Sure it is hardly significant for one’s contribution to the emission reduction, but we still have to voice out our concern on the matters. This particular post is one of such effort. There’s no shame on doubting OP on pushing their voice on the issue, but this community is dedicated for such problem, of course you’d expect post like this to raise the awareness.
Ok, so give us your plan to stop billions of people from buying cars, clothes and cola.
I, personally, would love to hear it.
As a consumer, i cant find ways to make the products i buy cause less environmental damage and i cant just stop buying clothes, and theres only one place to buy them
or food. And i can only get that from one place.
I cant suddenly not own a car, or else how do i get to work? Public transport isnt an option where i live. and i dont have a choice in how that car is made.
There are alternatives out there for all of these but they are significantly more expensive and i already live on a tight budget and cant afford to suddenly increase my spending.
If you cant see how that traps consumers and the change has to come from above then you are lost
Also theres nothing ‘mythical’ about the companies that produce 70% of the emmisions.
Thats not even the point of the argument. We are expected to separate our waste into special bins or buy electric cars (soooo expensive) or produce less waste and reduce our individual emmisions but its pointless. we can only affect 30% of the global emissions and ee wont get our individual emmisions to zero so it wont even be 30% reduced if we make all the changes we need to.
This isnt an us or them situation, companies need to be held accountable for their emissions and be forced to reduce them. They will always follow the money, consumers will get used to whatever options they are given.
I feel like bikes are a good alternative to cars. At least to address one of your points about getting to work. Even an ebike has far less total emissions than a car… Assuming people actually use them instead of just leaving it in the garage
I appreciate that i could be a fringe case hut an ebike would turn my 30-50minute commute into 1-1.4 hour journey along a dangerous road with no cycle lanes or pavement for 90% of the journey.
This would work for alot of people but not for me unfortunately
Bikes are only good for small distances.
What a better alternative for cars would be is public transport.
Just imagine if all the money and time we put into building a highway network would have been put into public transport instead.
How many people live more than 10 miles from work? I know I never have.
90% of people can ride bikes and the rest can take public transit.
I live in the Midwest too, my city is really spread out, but biking is still possible. It would even be enjoyable if there were feewer cars
Just like all other environmental legislation Chinese imports will just fill the void. They use mostly coal.
What if alternatives for heavy emitters like steel and concrete producers do not exist at this time… Just dictating targets might be unproductive.
Companies emissions are exclusively to provide you the consume with goods and services. Companies will respond to the marker dictated by the consumer. Really we are also driving the 70%…
This is a lie that you’ve been told by econ 101. Companies will manipulate the markets through lobbying and anticompetitive behaviours so that the consumer has no other choice.
For instance, the suburbs are not a natural outworking of market desires, they are mandated by legislation that prevents medium rise and high density urban development, which necessitates cars and also massively overloads the roads so you have terrible traffic.
This wasn’t a natural outworking of a market, but a deliberate push by capitalists to destroy public transit, build more roads, and lock you the consumer into a world in which you actually do not have any choice. This, not coincidentally, also creates the most wasteful possible way to organise our cities and transport ourselves - individualised cars and dwellings with enormous demands on space. More wasteful systems are as a rule better for capitalists because they create the largest possible market for consumables and redundant equipment.
Yeah if you want to fix zoning to increase density that’s a local government issue. I personally like having a car and large house outside of the city. I’m absolutely in support of government fixing multi residential zoning … Would have loved better options when I was younger. I’m sure a lot of developers would gladly respond to those market forces if given the option … Do you think it’s nimbys preventing that or capitalists?
We live under capitalism. That means, explicitly, that capital has all the power. To the extent nimbyism is a real problem that’s because it’s been stoked by capitalist propaganda and fueled by the artificial fear that their property prices will go down. Homeowners have been taught to think in those terms rather than about what will actually affect their quality of life because the nuance-flattening logic of the market permeates our thinking.
You show me a single home owner who’s enthusiastic about having a large multi-unit built next door … I wouldn’t be happy personally.
If you think capital has all the power look at TC energy’s keystone pipeline. Look at LNG facility approval in Canada. No shortage of capital there but those projects are dead.
If there’s demand for something (housing) markets will solve that problem you just get out of the way and let them. Capitalists would love to sell the same acre of developed realeatate to more than one person. Remember - they’re greedy.
What an absolutely wild example to cite for your argument. The Keystone pipeline is a perfect example of how capital and the state have all of the institutional power. Protestors have lived on site for years, being brutalised by thugs working for the state on behalf of capital. They have given up enormous chunks of their lives, meanwhile the execs and politicians organising their brutalisation do it with meetings and emails. Only after years of disruptive action will the state finally step in to change something, and even then the story isn’t over.
It is an awful project that illegally siezed land and is devastating to the environment both locally and globally, but fossil fuel companies want to make money so the state will defend their bullshit until it becomes obvious that it’s a complete wash.
People power works, but it is an uphill fight against entrenched power structures.
This is just an article of faith. The invisible hand of the market is the capitalist replacement for the divine right of kings and I am yet to see any examples of it really working. I’ve explained how it’s not the case but you don’t seem to feel any need to rebut anything I’ve said, you’re just repeating your beliefs as if that means anything. I mean, cool opinion but you’re not really making an argument.
And anyway, if you really believed this then you would support the removal of restrictive zoning laws, which is one of the main things I would advocate to start addressing this problem.
Yeah pipelines cause harm … But moving petroleum freight and truck is better? I have a pipeline across my property… After construction its just a cleared path essentially. There’s the risk of a spill of course but look at some of the rail disasters or oil tanker incidents … The oil and gas are being moved for you and me … we all use it and if love alternatives that work but we aren’t there yet.
I’m not sure how we got turned around on removing zoning restrictions … I agree that’s helpful. Yes the invisible hand of the market … What’s the first word there? Look at all of the products you enjoy… How they came to be… People in the west are so lucky and have it so good and all they do is complain.
Anyway let’s agree to disagree. When people power starts actually providing food electricity and transportation I’ll see it as working …
I mean we already disagree on stuff, that’s just reality. I will explain the parts I agree with though. I agree that personal consumptive action is not only minimally effective but also not really possible. I am advocating for collective political action to remove the irrational ways our economy demands ever expanding growth and emmissions just to satisfy a shrinking minority of shareholders.
I think the messages in these images that imply you as a driver are to blame are wrong in that respect. The ones telling you what’s wrong with cars are pretty good. I think the general attitude of the fuckcars community is that we need systemic change. A better message than the personal ones might be, “our city forces us to drive”, or “traffic jams are expensive”, both highlighting the burden that car-centric infrastructure imposes on you.
If you want to see people power working to create something, look at the Zapatistas or Rojava where they’ve displaced their states and rely on horizontalist power to do everything. Even within a capitalist state you can achieve this - look at the Cooperation movement. There are places like Cooperation Jackson or Cooperation Tulsa in the US.
I mentioned zoning restrictions because car-centric suburbs are basically mandated in huge parts of the US, where it sounds like you’re from. In fact if you really like the suburbs, then making low-rise high-density urban environments that are walkable with good public transit and a minimal accommodation for car traffic will draw a lot of people out of the suburbs and make them quieter and reduce traffic. The suburbs, and driving in them, would get better - this is a win-win.
Also though if you saw how nice walkable urban environments could be, you might change your mind over time. Not Just Bikes on youtube does a great job laying this out.
This is a good place to start that makes the case that better options for non-car travel makes car travel better: https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k
This one talks about how to make suburbs that don’t suck: https://youtu.be/MWsGBRdK2N0
Now, I don’t know if I can address your conviction that a “free market” - a contradiction in terms imo - will work, except to ask you when a free market has ever existed and done what you say it will, in your opinion. I don’t like state domination of our lives, but it is possible to collectively plan society without any overarching ruler telling us what to do, and without resorting to markets. In fact, I’d say it’s necessary, because both of those things flatten the incomprehensible complexity of society down to numbers that ignore real human needs.
I have some nice stuff, sure, but the market didn’t supply those things. It gatekept them and keeps everyone in a constant state of vigilance lest they slip and lose their tenuous hold on the imaginary tokens that decide who eats and who doesn’t. I’d rather have less personal property and more communal security. I also would rather all of the things I consume to not be blood-drenched. Like if I could trade having a mobile phone for all of the children that are forced to mine coltan being free and cared for properly, then I’d do it in a second. I don’t have that choice though, because consumer power barely exists. If you wouldn’t make that trade then that’s a matter between you and your god.
Edit: Also about the pipeline thing, the solution is to remove our dependence on fossil fuels, not build more infrastructure to enable it. Our society has an addiction to fossil fuels. The withdrawals will hurt but the alternative is a slow, painful death.
How bout making government accountable for the people instead of relying on a state machine that consistently needing funds from the lobbying? We have to utilise our collective power to enforce our will onto the goverment, isn’t that how democracy works? Sure it is hardly significant for one’s contribution to the emission reduction, but we still have to voice out our concern on the matters. This particular post is one of such effort. There’s no shame on doubting OP on pushing their voice on the issue, but this community is dedicated for such problem, of course you’d expect post like this to raise the awareness.