This is like saying that Ukraine is slaughtering LGBTQ+ people because they’ve killed nearly 1/2 a million russian soldiers. On top of that, you’re acting like the reason Israel has targeted them is because they’re LGBTQ+. You don’t label a civilian death as a hate crime just because they’re a certain race or gender. So no you’re statement is blatantly false.
Palestine is not a race, and Islam is %100 transphobic and the main religion practiced there (98% of the population).
Nah you’re just a racist. Where is the evidence that that 98% of Islam is transphobic? The majority of Muslim people I know are pro-lgbtq, but I guess you would actually need to talk to Muslim people to know that and since you view them as beneath you I can see how that would be hard. It’s like saying all of Christianity is transphobic and that everyone who lives in red-states in the US is as well.
The Ukraine situation is entirely different. To compare the two is insane. If Ukraine murdered civilians of a specific ethnicity indiscriminately en masse, with the majority being children, I think pointing out that some of the people that they are murdering is lgbtq in response to people claiming that we should kill them or not care if they die is legitimate. This is also a popular Zionist talking point to justify their genocide and it’s so fucked up that idiots like you fall for it. It’s understandable that people who care about lgbtq-people would care about seeing people who are like them being murdered by Israel.
Also are you pulling the “I’m not a racist because Islam is not a race” card?
This is “I don’t like what the facts say so you’re a racist card” fuck off with that shit.
Where is the evidence that that 98% of Islam is transphobic?
Reading comprehension isn’t your stong suite is it? I said that Islam is a trans/homophobic religion and that 98% of Palestinians practice Islam.
The majority of Muslim people I know are pro-lgbtq, but I guess you would actually need to talk to Muslim people to know that and since you view them as beneath you I can see how that would be hard. It’s like saying all of Christianity is transphobic and that everyone who lives in red-states in the US is as well.
You really need to understand something, Islam and LGBT rights are not friends. The middle east is a dangerous and violent place for LGBT persons. This is not some made up stat. It’s a fact. Get your head out of the sand and actually do some damn research for once.
The Ukraine situation is entirely different. To compare the two is insane. If Ukraine murdered civilians of a specific ethnicity indiscriminately en masse, with the majority being children, I think pointing out that some of the people that they are murdering is lgbtq in response to people claiming that we should kill them or not care if they die is legitimate. This is also a popular Zionist talking point to justify their genocide and it’s so fucked up that idiots like you fall for it. It’s understandable that people who care about lgbtq-people would care about seeing people who are like them being murdered by Israel.
You literally called what Israel is doing as murdering LGBTQ persons, because they’re bombing indiscriminately…hence the comparison, but since you’re incapable of understanding that, you toss out insults and personal attacks.
Also are you pulling the “I’m not a racist because Islam is not a race” card?
Says the guy who backed up his facts with "I know Muslim people "…this is the same white privilege bullshit of “I have black friends”…you couldn’t come off more white privilege if you tried.
https://hexbear.net/post/2481767 Enjoy being put on display, too bad they deleted it. I know it’s really difficult for you to understand but because a place has anti-lgbtq laws doesn’t mean everyone who live there or everyone who practices the religion of that country is homophobic or transphobic. This is like really basic stuff but I can understand it can be hard for a racists to understand. It’s like saying all of the people who live in red-states in the US are transphobic because the anti-trans laws there. It doesn’t mean everyone is and it doesn’t mean everyone who lives there is transphobic. Displaying entire diverse groups of people as being a certain way, especially to justify their genocide, is actually kind of the definition of racism.
Also if a racist claims all black people are a certain way and I say “I know black people who aren’t that way” it’s not the same as saying “I have a black friend” to claim you are not racist. It’s kind of the opposite actually. The fact you don’t understand that proves how dumb you are.
You do realize hexbear was defederated from basically everything because it’s filled with tankies who are ok with russia murdering Ukrainians and iranian gov. Murdering women right? Lol I could give a fuck less what they think
I know it’s really difficult for you to understand but because a place has anti-lgbtq laws doesn’t mean everyone who live there or everyone who practices the religion of that country is homophobic or transphobic.
Yea not hard to understand, but do yourself a favor and actually go research what happens in the middle east to LGBT people, and while you’re at it, make sure you notice it’s not just the gov. Doing the killings.
This is like really basic stuff but I can understand it can be hard for a racists to understand.
You’re talking to a minority.
It’s like saying all of the people who live in red-states in the US are transphobic because the anti-trans laws there.
Yea… it’s really not, even close to that. Sure hate crimes exist in the usa, and honestly way to many, but we also don’t have laws about stoning gay persons. You’re trying to compare apples to oranges here.
It doesn’t mean everyone is and it doesn’t mean everyone who lives there is transphobic.
Sure, never said it does. That’s the issue with you and the others, you’re coming up with scenarios in your mind that I’ve never said existed.
Displaying entire diverse groups of people as being a certain way, especially to justify their genocide, is actually kind of the definition of racism.
Please please please show where I have even remotely said I support what Israel is doing… please link it.
Also if a racist claims all black people are a certain way and I say “I know black people who aren’t that way” it’s not the same as saying “I have a black friend” to claim you are not racist. It’s kind of the opposite actually. The fact you don’t understand that proves how dumb you are.
You support Israel because you’re parroting a Zionist talking about about Palestinians being transphobic and homophbic ignoring how they, like everywhere else, have an lgtbq population that is also being murdered by Israel. All you have to say is that it’s no racist to paint an entire group of people as being a certain way because Palestine is not a race. Sure that makes sense.
It’s not comparing apples to oranges, it’s the same logic. You paint an entire group of people as anti-lgbtq, even though the laws you claim don’t exist in Palestine, and extrapolate that to the entire population. Or it’s even more insane because you take examples from other countries and apply it to Palestine without actually providing any evidence for what you say is true for Palestine. Those laws don’t exist there so what is you’re logic that Palestine is homophobic? Because all of Islam is, sure that makes sense. No need to provide any evidence for it, and if you claim that they have a high transphobic population so does red-states in the US thus the comparison is valid.
I have never argued homophobia or transphobia is not a problem in Muslim countries. What you’re saying becomes a problem when you essentialize an entire group of people as being hateful. This is what racists does so it makes sense to point it out.
You support Israel because you’re parroting a Zionist talking about about Palestinians being transphobic and homophbic ignoring how they, like everywhere else, have an lgtbq population that is also being murdered by Israel.
Please point out where I’ve stated I support Israel? Pretty sure I’ve state the opposite multiple times in this thread.
And once again, you bring up an ignorant talking point, so let’s run with your logic, because there are lgbt people in Palestine it makes Israel murders to them, not murders to anyone else apparently. So by your logic, the USA for 20 years were just murdering lgbt people in Iraq and Afghanistan…
All you have to say is that it’s no racist to paint an entire group of people as being a certain way because Palestine is not a race. Sure that makes sense.
They’re not a race, are you trolling me at this point? Cause your logic is getting dumber and dumber.
It’s not comparing apples to oranges, it’s the same logic.
It really is but ok…
You paint an entire group of people as anti-lgbtq, even though the laws you claim don’t exist in Palestine, and extrapolate that to the entire population.
I’ve been saying Islam and lgbtq rights are not friends, no where have I said Palestinians are all anti-lgbtq, you have continued to suggest I have, just as you continue to say I’ve been using Zionist talking points. You also seem to lack the ability to produce any actual facts of your own, while I’ve continued to have to provide you with articles and the laws in middle east…so I’ll do it again.
It’s not hard to understand that lgbt persons cannot openly express themselves there.
Or it’s even more insane because you take examples from other countries and apply it to Palestine without actually providing any evidence for what you say is true for Palestine.
LGBTI people’s rights
Authorities failed to prevent and investigate homophobic and transphobic threats and attacks.
On 9 July, security forces stood by and watched as a mob beat youths and children participating in a parade organized by Ashtar Theatre in Ramallah that included rainbow flags. The attack came amid a wave of incitement to violence and hate speech against LGBTI people and feminists that the authorities failed to investigate.
In October, Ahmad Abu Murkhiyeh, a 25-year-old gay man, was found decapitated in Hebron. He had sought asylum in Israel two years prior to his murder.
Those laws don’t exist there so what is you’re logic that Palestine is homophobic? Because all of Islam is, sure that makes sense. No need to provide any evidence for it, and if you claim that they have a high transphobic population
I’ve provided the laws, I’ve provided the articles, I’ve provided everything that backs my claims, you and othets on the other hand have done nothing but toss out whataboutisms and anecdotal evidence of your claims. You clearly have zero clue what it is like in the middle east and in Islamic sharia law states.
so does red-states in the US thus the comparison is valid.
As I said more whataboutism…and our red states have plenty of homophobic and transphobic groups and they absolutely are disgusting pieces of shit for existing, but because they exist doesn’t give a pass to the middle east.
I have never argued homophobia or transphobia is not a problem in Muslim countries. What you’re saying becomes a problem when you essentialize an entire group of people as being hateful. This is what racists does so it makes sense to point it out.
Yea you have, you literally in this very post said Palestine doesn’t have any anti LGBT policies…you have continued to point out how Israel is only somehow killing LGBT people and you have continued to point out whatsboutism’s comparing our red states with the middle east.
I’ve provided plenty of evidence for my points, and you and others have done nothing but move goal posts, use anecdotal evidence, and whatsboutisms, all while calling me a racist and other personal attacks, because you’re unable to provide any sort of evidence that contradict my points.
You don’t seem to even try to respond to anything I’m saying at all so I don’t see the point of this. You’re straight up lying. You said “Palestine is not a race, and Islam is %100 transphobic and the main religion practiced there (98% of the population).” to me saying it’s racist to claim Palestinians are all transphobic. If you get to the point of having to lie to prove your point I se no point in continuing to this. Again never claimed that homophobia isn’t a problem but keep posting that straw man please. Dumb fuck.
Also you don’t seem to know what the word whataboutism means or you’re just incapable of understanding my point. I’m not saying we shouldn’t care about homophobia in middle eastern countries because it happens in republican states. I’m applying your logic to show how it doesn’t make sense. That is totally lost on you however.
It’s a common tactic by racists to claim they are not racists by saying everyone from that country is a criminal etc. and when you point out the flaw in the logic they go, but Nigeria is not a race, Islam is not a race, etc etc. It’s dumb, It’s boring and has been done to death.
You don’t seem to even try to respond to anything I’m saying at all so I don’t see the point of this. You’re straight up lying. You said “Palestine is not a race, and Islam is %100 transphobic and the main religion practiced there (98% of the population).” to me saying it’s racist to claim Palestinians are all transphobic. If you get to the point of having to lie to prove your point I se no point in continuing to this. Again never claimed that homophobia isn’t a problem but keep posting that straw man please. Dumb fuck.
Uhh this entire thread of comments have been about people saying that Palestine is completely fine for the LGBT community…learn to read and then learn to understand what you’re reading.
Also you don’t seem to know what the word whataboutism means or you’re just incapable of understanding my point. I’m not saying we shouldn’t care about homophobia in middle eastern countries because it happens in republican states. I’m applying your logic to show how it doesn’t make sense. That is totally lost on you however.
Naa it’s not lost on me champ, that’s a perfect example of whataboutism…like definition perfect. I’ve pointed out multiple times in this chain of comments to multiple people that Palestine is not a LGBT friendly place and that Islam is not a friend to the LGBT community, and ehat I’ve been getting back is “well the christians in the USA are homophobic too”… that’s whataboutism.
It’s a common tactic by racists to claim they are not racists by saying everyone from that country is a criminal etc. and when you point out the flaw in the logic they go, but Nigeria is not a race, Islam is not a race, etc etc. It’s dumb, It’s boring and has been done to death.
Lol sure thing champ. You keep trying to understand what they adults are talking about, so far it’s been ignorance and dribble.
Copying this from a previous comment as it’s basically the same ignorance so I don’t care enough about changing the context.
Just ignore the fact Christians are doing the same thing. It’s not an Islamic issue. It’s a conservative issue. Muslims in America are predominantly left leaning and their views reflect it. I’m more worried about Christians in America trying to kill me than Muslims. They are more accepting of me here than Christians. My local mosque has a big trans rights flag in protest of our local politicians, and guess who were the ones to get upset about that. I’ll give you a hint. It wasn’t the people who were worshiping under the trans rights flag.
As a subject of hate born from essentialization, it’s bad. Don’t do it. Regardless of who you’re essentializing. Systemic oppression can only happen with underlying dehumanization that comes from this thinking. Before you say “what about Nazis?”, still no. It removes responsibility from them. That was the immediate and obvious excuse the people under Nazi Germany used to absolve themselves when the war ended. It was what was used to excuse the people brought to Western nations under programs like paper clip. They are people. They are just like you. You are capable of becoming just like them. Unless you’re willing to accept that, you’re much more susceptible to becoming like them.
Not arguing that, there isn’t anywhere in this entire thread that I have done so. I’ve just been pointing out that the middle east and islam is hostile towards LGBT persons. And everyone here seems to think that’s not the case.
Muslims are not significantly more likely than all Americans to identify as liberal (30% vs. 28%); however, a greater share of Muslims describe themselves as politically moderate (39% vs. 32% of all U.S. adults).
Muslims vote Democrat mainly because dems aren’t trying to constantly glass the middle east… wondering how that’ll look now that biden continues to feed the Israelis bombs, so they can continue the genocide.
I’m more worried about Christians in America trying to kill me than Muslims.
In the USA? Sure, more people here are christians, but don’t think that if Islam was given the chance at running the usa that you’d be better off somehow.
They are more accepting of me here than Christians. My local mosque has a big trans rights flag in protest of our local politicians, and guess who were the ones to get upset about that. I’ll give you a hint. It wasn’t the people who were worshiping under the trans rights flag.
Not saying there aren’t tolerant Muslims, never have.
As a subject of hate born from essentialization, it’s bad. Don’t do it. Regardless of who you’re essentializing.
Intolerance of the intolerant I believe is what is preached around here.
Systemic oppression can only happen with underlying dehumanization that comes from this thinking.
%100 agree
Before you say “what about Nazis?”, still no. It removes responsibility from them. That was the immediate and obvious excuse the people under Nazi Germany used to absolve themselves when the war ended. It was what was used to excuse the people brought to Western nations under programs like paper clip. They are people. They are just like you. You are capable of becoming just like them. Unless you’re willing to accept that, you’re much more susceptible to becoming like them.
I’m not someone who believes that you should be tolerant of those who actively are trying to remove the rights and lives of others based off of their skin color, gender or sexual orientation.
What Israel is doing is fucked, we should have stopped funding their damn military decades ago.
What hamas and other jihadist are doing to people (women and LGBT persons mainly) in the middle east is also fucked.
Both things can be true. Not everything is black and white. It’s like we have lost all nuance in discussions these days.
This is like saying that Ukraine is slaughtering LGBTQ+ people because they’ve killed nearly 1/2 a million russian soldiers. On top of that, you’re acting like the reason Israel has targeted them is because they’re LGBTQ+. You don’t label a civilian death as a hate crime just because they’re a certain race or gender. So no you’re statement is blatantly false.
Palestine is not a race, and Islam is %100 transphobic and the main religion practiced there (98% of the population).
Nah you’re just a racist. Where is the evidence that that 98% of Islam is transphobic? The majority of Muslim people I know are pro-lgbtq, but I guess you would actually need to talk to Muslim people to know that and since you view them as beneath you I can see how that would be hard. It’s like saying all of Christianity is transphobic and that everyone who lives in red-states in the US is as well.
The Ukraine situation is entirely different. To compare the two is insane. If Ukraine murdered civilians of a specific ethnicity indiscriminately en masse, with the majority being children, I think pointing out that some of the people that they are murdering is lgbtq in response to people claiming that we should kill them or not care if they die is legitimate. This is also a popular Zionist talking point to justify their genocide and it’s so fucked up that idiots like you fall for it. It’s understandable that people who care about lgbtq-people would care about seeing people who are like them being murdered by Israel.
Also are you pulling the “I’m not a racist because Islam is not a race” card?
Not so hypothetical.
This is “I don’t like what the facts say so you’re a racist card” fuck off with that shit.
Reading comprehension isn’t your stong suite is it? I said that Islam is a trans/homophobic religion and that 98% of Palestinians practice Islam.
https://www.equaldex.com/equality-index?region=Middle+East
You really need to understand something, Islam and LGBT rights are not friends. The middle east is a dangerous and violent place for LGBT persons. This is not some made up stat. It’s a fact. Get your head out of the sand and actually do some damn research for once.
You literally called what Israel is doing as murdering LGBTQ persons, because they’re bombing indiscriminately…hence the comparison, but since you’re incapable of understanding that, you toss out insults and personal attacks.
Says the guy who backed up his facts with "I know Muslim people "…this is the same white privilege bullshit of “I have black friends”…you couldn’t come off more white privilege if you tried.
https://hexbear.net/post/2481767 Enjoy being put on display, too bad they deleted it. I know it’s really difficult for you to understand but because a place has anti-lgbtq laws doesn’t mean everyone who live there or everyone who practices the religion of that country is homophobic or transphobic. This is like really basic stuff but I can understand it can be hard for a racists to understand. It’s like saying all of the people who live in red-states in the US are transphobic because the anti-trans laws there. It doesn’t mean everyone is and it doesn’t mean everyone who lives there is transphobic. Displaying entire diverse groups of people as being a certain way, especially to justify their genocide, is actually kind of the definition of racism.
Also if a racist claims all black people are a certain way and I say “I know black people who aren’t that way” it’s not the same as saying “I have a black friend” to claim you are not racist. It’s kind of the opposite actually. The fact you don’t understand that proves how dumb you are.
You do realize hexbear was defederated from basically everything because it’s filled with tankies who are ok with russia murdering Ukrainians and iranian gov. Murdering women right? Lol I could give a fuck less what they think
Yea not hard to understand, but do yourself a favor and actually go research what happens in the middle east to LGBT people, and while you’re at it, make sure you notice it’s not just the gov. Doing the killings.
You’re talking to a minority.
Yea… it’s really not, even close to that. Sure hate crimes exist in the usa, and honestly way to many, but we also don’t have laws about stoning gay persons. You’re trying to compare apples to oranges here.
Sure, never said it does. That’s the issue with you and the others, you’re coming up with scenarios in your mind that I’ve never said existed.
Please please please show where I have even remotely said I support what Israel is doing… please link it.
ROFL ok…
You support Israel because you’re parroting a Zionist talking about about Palestinians being transphobic and homophbic ignoring how they, like everywhere else, have an lgtbq population that is also being murdered by Israel. All you have to say is that it’s no racist to paint an entire group of people as being a certain way because Palestine is not a race. Sure that makes sense.
It’s not comparing apples to oranges, it’s the same logic. You paint an entire group of people as anti-lgbtq, even though the laws you claim don’t exist in Palestine, and extrapolate that to the entire population. Or it’s even more insane because you take examples from other countries and apply it to Palestine without actually providing any evidence for what you say is true for Palestine. Those laws don’t exist there so what is you’re logic that Palestine is homophobic? Because all of Islam is, sure that makes sense. No need to provide any evidence for it, and if you claim that they have a high transphobic population so does red-states in the US thus the comparison is valid.
I have never argued homophobia or transphobia is not a problem in Muslim countries. What you’re saying becomes a problem when you essentialize an entire group of people as being hateful. This is what racists does so it makes sense to point it out.
Please point out where I’ve stated I support Israel? Pretty sure I’ve state the opposite multiple times in this thread. And once again, you bring up an ignorant talking point, so let’s run with your logic, because there are lgbt people in Palestine it makes Israel murders to them, not murders to anyone else apparently. So by your logic, the USA for 20 years were just murdering lgbt people in Iraq and Afghanistan…
They’re not a race, are you trolling me at this point? Cause your logic is getting dumber and dumber.
It really is but ok…
I’ve been saying Islam and lgbtq rights are not friends, no where have I said Palestinians are all anti-lgbtq, you have continued to suggest I have, just as you continue to say I’ve been using Zionist talking points. You also seem to lack the ability to produce any actual facts of your own, while I’ve continued to have to provide you with articles and the laws in middle east…so I’ll do it again.
https://web.archive.org/web/20231031155142/https://www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/palestine/
It’s not hard to understand that lgbt persons cannot openly express themselves there.
https://web.archive.org/web/20231101143647/https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/palestine-state-of/report-palestine-state-of/
I’ve provided the laws, I’ve provided the articles, I’ve provided everything that backs my claims, you and othets on the other hand have done nothing but toss out whataboutisms and anecdotal evidence of your claims. You clearly have zero clue what it is like in the middle east and in Islamic sharia law states.
As I said more whataboutism…and our red states have plenty of homophobic and transphobic groups and they absolutely are disgusting pieces of shit for existing, but because they exist doesn’t give a pass to the middle east.
Yea you have, you literally in this very post said Palestine doesn’t have any anti LGBT policies…you have continued to point out how Israel is only somehow killing LGBT people and you have continued to point out whatsboutism’s comparing our red states with the middle east.
I’ve provided plenty of evidence for my points, and you and others have done nothing but move goal posts, use anecdotal evidence, and whatsboutisms, all while calling me a racist and other personal attacks, because you’re unable to provide any sort of evidence that contradict my points.
You don’t seem to even try to respond to anything I’m saying at all so I don’t see the point of this. You’re straight up lying. You said “Palestine is not a race, and Islam is %100 transphobic and the main religion practiced there (98% of the population).” to me saying it’s racist to claim Palestinians are all transphobic. If you get to the point of having to lie to prove your point I se no point in continuing to this. Again never claimed that homophobia isn’t a problem but keep posting that straw man please. Dumb fuck.
Also you don’t seem to know what the word whataboutism means or you’re just incapable of understanding my point. I’m not saying we shouldn’t care about homophobia in middle eastern countries because it happens in republican states. I’m applying your logic to show how it doesn’t make sense. That is totally lost on you however.
It’s a common tactic by racists to claim they are not racists by saying everyone from that country is a criminal etc. and when you point out the flaw in the logic they go, but Nigeria is not a race, Islam is not a race, etc etc. It’s dumb, It’s boring and has been done to death.
Uhh this entire thread of comments have been about people saying that Palestine is completely fine for the LGBT community…learn to read and then learn to understand what you’re reading.
Naa it’s not lost on me champ, that’s a perfect example of whataboutism…like definition perfect. I’ve pointed out multiple times in this chain of comments to multiple people that Palestine is not a LGBT friendly place and that Islam is not a friend to the LGBT community, and ehat I’ve been getting back is “well the christians in the USA are homophobic too”… that’s whataboutism.
Lol sure thing champ. You keep trying to understand what they adults are talking about, so far it’s been ignorance and dribble.
Copying this from a previous comment as it’s basically the same ignorance so I don’t care enough about changing the context.
Just ignore the fact Christians are doing the same thing. It’s not an Islamic issue. It’s a conservative issue. Muslims in America are predominantly left leaning and their views reflect it. I’m more worried about Christians in America trying to kill me than Muslims. They are more accepting of me here than Christians. My local mosque has a big trans rights flag in protest of our local politicians, and guess who were the ones to get upset about that. I’ll give you a hint. It wasn’t the people who were worshiping under the trans rights flag.
As a subject of hate born from essentialization, it’s bad. Don’t do it. Regardless of who you’re essentializing. Systemic oppression can only happen with underlying dehumanization that comes from this thinking. Before you say “what about Nazis?”, still no. It removes responsibility from them. That was the immediate and obvious excuse the people under Nazi Germany used to absolve themselves when the war ended. It was what was used to excuse the people brought to Western nations under programs like paper clip. They are people. They are just like you. You are capable of becoming just like them. Unless you’re willing to accept that, you’re much more susceptible to becoming like them.
Just ignore the fact Christians are doing the same thing. It’s not an Islamic issue. It’s a conservative issue.
Not arguing that, there isn’t anywhere in this entire thread that I have done so. I’ve just been pointing out that the middle east and islam is hostile towards LGBT persons. And everyone here seems to think that’s not the case.
Muslims vote Democrat mainly because dems aren’t trying to constantly glass the middle east… wondering how that’ll look now that biden continues to feed the Israelis bombs, so they can continue the genocide.
In the USA? Sure, more people here are christians, but don’t think that if Islam was given the chance at running the usa that you’d be better off somehow.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/17/hamtramck-michigan-muslim-council-lgbtq-pride-flags-banned
Not saying there aren’t tolerant Muslims, never have.
Intolerance of the intolerant I believe is what is preached around here.
%100 agree
I’m not someone who believes that you should be tolerant of those who actively are trying to remove the rights and lives of others based off of their skin color, gender or sexual orientation.
What Israel is doing is fucked, we should have stopped funding their damn military decades ago.
What hamas and other jihadist are doing to people (women and LGBT persons mainly) in the middle east is also fucked.
Both things can be true. Not everything is black and white. It’s like we have lost all nuance in discussions these days.