Steam Deck is a computer, so its users deserve to have full control over it just like their PC or smartphone.
You are correct about Steam client though. Even if they keep the internals closed, the GUI part alone would be worth forking. I wish a chrome-less version would exist.
If people can’t easily modify it, then its developers have power over users. You have to trust that they will not abuse that power, but they already do - with DRM for example.
I get that it sucks when a device is locked, because you might need to install a different OS for a multitude of reasons, but as long as you are able to install whatever you want I dont blame the manufacturer.
You don’t have to use SteamOS and you don’t have to use Windows, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are unethical operating systems designed to take away user’s freedom. You can’t easily know what it does on your device or change it. It keeps secrets from you. Steam also restricts you with DRM. So unless you are fine with Valve becoming another Microsoft, we need to criticize them for doing this.
I’m okay with valve replacing microsoft as the go-to proprietary operating system
You have to recognize that having an open source almost everything except a single program (steam) is better than what windows is doing by miles, right?
You can’t win everything, steam is never going to stop being proprietary, but steam will cause open source to flourish with the caveat that it itself is not open source. The issue is not as black and white as you’re making it seem.
Plus if steam wins, getting people to switch to fully open source operating systems will be a lot easier.
Then you don’t care about freedom and having control over your computer. That’s a shame. I think you should.
You have to recognize that having an open source almost everything except a single program (steam) is better than what windows is doing by miles, right?
But is that actually true? There is no source code for SteamOS 3. How do you know how many packages are proprietary? Even one nonfree package is unethical. People deserve to have control over their computers, I don’t care if it’s currently a little better than Windows.
You can’t win everything, steam is never going to stop being proprietary
This is irrelevant. We should still try to make the world better and fight the injustice. If gamers realized this 10 years ago, maybe we would have this problem solved by now.
The issue is not as black and white as you’re making it seem.
You can’t have freedom when someone is actively trying to take it away from you. We have to get rid of proprietary software. If we accept the abuse from those companies, nothing will change. We’ve been fighting this battle for 40 years now. Those companies want to give you an illusion of freedom, so that they can pretend that they are good. They are using the work of Free Software volunteers to build a prison for you.
Plus if steam wins, getting people to switch to fully open source operating systems will be a lot easier.
No, there is no Free Software alternative to Steam and there is no reason to believe that Valve will release its source code.
You are making an assumption that Valve won’t make their system even more proprietary. But why wouldn’t they if their fans are ok with this? They’re already abusing their power with Steam. Giving them more power will only make the abuse worse.
I do care about this, I just believe your path will move nothing at all whereas valve is making linux a viable option and contributing to open source immensely, their client is built on completely free software and you can easily uninstall it, they can’t fork linux and gnu or any of their drivers to make it proprietary so I don’t know what you’re worried about
This path has lead us to where we are today, which is why companies want to blur the line between free and nonfree software, because it’s the only way they can slow down the progress of our movement. Microsoft also contributes to “Open Source” and that’s great, but they also abuse their users, which wrong. It’s similar with Valve. The Steam client is proprietary. Sure, you can remove it, just like you can remove Windows from a computer too, but that doesn’t make Windows ethical. Linux is already proprietary by default - it contains binary blobs without source code. So Arch is already a nonfree OS, Valve is just making it even more proprietary. I see a lot of people falling for the same traps over and over again and I’m worried that the majority of us will never learn to avoid them.
Can you explain what parts of SteamOS are not controllable in a way that makes it more restricted than Arch, which it is based on?
Valve won’t release the source code and I don’t use it, so it’s hard for me to tell which packages are proprietary and which are not. Steam client for sure is proprietary and it comes with the OS. Arch by default is Free Software (other than proprietary blobs in the kernel) and you can audit what each program does and modify it. With SteamOS you can’t do that, because Valve keeps secrets from you on your own device.
[If the account owns the game - allow user to download and run the game] is a DRM sure… But it’s kind of fair, no?
To play any game you have to install and run the proprietary Steam client and be logged in to an account. Even to play singleplayer games. Even if you bought a physical disc. There are stores that don’t do this: gog.com and itch.io. They provide an optional client for convenience, but you can just download a game’s installer from the website and install it on any PC any time you want. In case of Itch the client is Free Software so anyone can see what it does and modify it.
That doesn’t mean you can’t control how it works. Most people don’t need sources of their Linux distros to use them as they want. It would be cool to have the source, but you wouldn’t expect them to have an official maintained repo since they spend much more resources on actual hardware that needs this distro.
Steam client for sure is proprietary and it comes with the OS
Yeah it seems to also be the only thing that is proprietary in SteamOS too.
To play any game you have to install and run the proprietary Steam client and be logged in to an account.
Are you clueless or what? There are too many ways to do what you want with SteamOS. You can use offline mode, desktop mode, play pirated games in any mode, install any controller software you like. Finally, install another Linux distro on it, or Windows. But people buy Deck because of SteamOS mostly since it creates the intended (and expected) experience.
Wanna know why we aren’t seeing many enthusiasts creating more handheld frontends for platforms like Deck? Yeah, not at all because the platform is locked behind DRM or other bs. But because the best experience most people expect is already available and it becomes better with updates.
That doesn’t mean you can’t control how it works. Most people don’t need sources of their Linux distros to use them as they want.
You can’t easily make changes to a program without the source code or even check what it does. Most people are not programmers, so others study the code and make the necessary changes for them.
It would be cool to have the source, but you wouldn’t expect them to have an official maintained repo since they spend much more resources on actual hardware that needs this distro.
This is not an excuse. What they are doing is unethical. They put themselves in a position of power over their users. Not much different from Microsoft or Apple.
Yeah it seems to also be the only thing that is proprietary in SteamOS too.
I don’t know if that’s true. But the Linux kernel is proprietary as well (just like the one in Arch) - it contains binary blobs without the source code.
Are you clueless or what? There are too many ways to do what you want with SteamOS. You can use offline mode, desktop mode, play pirated games in any mode, install any controller software you like.
I was explaining to you how DRM works and why it’s wrong, since apparently you have no idea. I don’t know why you are listing features that any popular desktop operating system has (even Windows). SteamOS is still proprietary, which makes it unethical.
Finally, install another Linux distro on it, or Windows. But people buy Deck because of SteamOS mostly since it creates the intended (and expected) experience.
If you buy a Windows laptop, you can install any operating system on it too. That doesn’t make Windows ethical.
99% users won’t ever need that. For cases when they do, they can find guides, modify settings or install software that does what they want.
This is not an excuse. What they are doing is unethical.
People don’t need an excuse. They play their games and that’s it.
it contains binary blobs without the source code
Any distro you download can do this exact thing and you wouldn’t know for a long period, unless you spend enough time to compile the whole thing yourself, compare and research.
I was explaining to you how DRM works and why it’s wrong
I consider myself knowledgeable but you surely chose a wrong example to teach people about DRM. Try some denuvo or eac maybe.
If you buy a Windows laptop, you can install any operating system on it too. That doesn’t make Windows ethical.
Whatever that means, users don’t care about it. Compared to others, Valve provides a lot more value in most of their solutions. They are hackable just enough to satisfy most enthusiasts.
99% users won’t ever need that. For cases when they do, they can find guides, modify settings or install software that does what they want.
You could make the same excuse for Windows.
Any distro you download can do this exact thing and you wouldn’t know for a long period, unless you spend enough time to compile the whole thing yourself, compare and research.
You don’t have to compile to know this. You can find the list of fully free distros here: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html . Debian removes those blobs too, but it’s not on that list for other reasons.
I consider myself knowledgeable but you surely chose a wrong example to teach people about DRM. Try some denuvo or eac maybe.
That’s DRM too and there are many more examples. Blu-ray also contains DRM. And so do most PC games thanks to Valve. Console games on the other hand usually don’t have DRM when you buy a physical copy.
Whatever that means, users don’t care about it. Compared to others, Valve provides a lot more value in most of their solutions. They are hackable just enough to satisfy most enthusiasts.
I know that most people don’t care about their freedom, privacy or security. Most people use Windows. But this doesn’t stop us from trying to build a better world for ourselves and to try to convince others to care.
The distros being removed from this list mostly by requests from maintainers means it’s not actively monitored or researched at all. So by not verifying it you put yourself on a mercy of other people. It will fail, if not already.
Console games on the other hand usually don’t have DRM when you buy a physical copy.
That’s because you have to use consoles to even read them. They contain hardware DRM and are far from being ethical.
But this doesn’t stop us from trying to build a better world for ourselves and to try to convince others to care.
Am I missing something or you’re thinking that starting with least offenders is a good idea?
The distros being removed from this list mostly by requests from maintainers means it’s not actively monitored or researched at all. So by not verifying it you put yourself on a mercy of other people. It will fail, if not already.
What are you talking about? It’s a list made by the Free Software Foundation. What was removed? If some information is incorrect, you should be able to prove it.
That’s because you have to use consoles to even read them. They contain hardware DRM and are far from being ethical.
I don’t know what hardware DRM means, but they use proprietary software, so you are right that they are unethical. I never said they were.
Am I missing something or you’re thinking that starting with least offenders is a good idea?
Steam Deck is a computer, so its users deserve to have full control over it just like their PC or smartphone.
If people can’t easily modify it, then its developers have power over users. You have to trust that they will not abuse that power, but they already do - with DRM for example.
You have full freedom to install Windows, SteamOS, or even Temple OS on your Steam Deck if you so fancy.
That does not make SteamOS or Windows an ethical OS.
You can install whatever you want on a Steam Deck afaik, so I dont get what you are trying to say here.
That SteamOS is unethical, similar to Windows.
Then you can just install something else on it?
I get that it sucks when a device is locked, because you might need to install a different OS for a multitude of reasons, but as long as you are able to install whatever you want I dont blame the manufacturer.
You don’t have to use SteamOS and you don’t have to use Windows, but that doesn’t change the fact that they are unethical operating systems designed to take away user’s freedom. You can’t easily know what it does on your device or change it. It keeps secrets from you. Steam also restricts you with DRM. So unless you are fine with Valve becoming another Microsoft, we need to criticize them for doing this.
I’m okay with valve replacing microsoft as the go-to proprietary operating system
You have to recognize that having an open source almost everything except a single program (steam) is better than what windows is doing by miles, right?
You can’t win everything, steam is never going to stop being proprietary, but steam will cause open source to flourish with the caveat that it itself is not open source. The issue is not as black and white as you’re making it seem.
Plus if steam wins, getting people to switch to fully open source operating systems will be a lot easier.
Then you don’t care about freedom and having control over your computer. That’s a shame. I think you should.
But is that actually true? There is no source code for SteamOS 3. How do you know how many packages are proprietary? Even one nonfree package is unethical. People deserve to have control over their computers, I don’t care if it’s currently a little better than Windows.
This is irrelevant. We should still try to make the world better and fight the injustice. If gamers realized this 10 years ago, maybe we would have this problem solved by now.
You can’t have freedom when someone is actively trying to take it away from you. We have to get rid of proprietary software. If we accept the abuse from those companies, nothing will change. We’ve been fighting this battle for 40 years now. Those companies want to give you an illusion of freedom, so that they can pretend that they are good. They are using the work of Free Software volunteers to build a prison for you.
No, there is no Free Software alternative to Steam and there is no reason to believe that Valve will release its source code.
You are making an assumption that Valve won’t make their system even more proprietary. But why wouldn’t they if their fans are ok with this? They’re already abusing their power with Steam. Giving them more power will only make the abuse worse.
I do care about this, I just believe your path will move nothing at all whereas valve is making linux a viable option and contributing to open source immensely, their client is built on completely free software and you can easily uninstall it, they can’t fork linux and gnu or any of their drivers to make it proprietary so I don’t know what you’re worried about
This path has lead us to where we are today, which is why companies want to blur the line between free and nonfree software, because it’s the only way they can slow down the progress of our movement. Microsoft also contributes to “Open Source” and that’s great, but they also abuse their users, which wrong. It’s similar with Valve. The Steam client is proprietary. Sure, you can remove it, just like you can remove Windows from a computer too, but that doesn’t make Windows ethical. Linux is already proprietary by default - it contains binary blobs without source code. So Arch is already a nonfree OS, Valve is just making it even more proprietary. I see a lot of people falling for the same traps over and over again and I’m worried that the majority of us will never learn to avoid them.
Can you explain what parts of SteamOS are not controllable in a way that makes it more restricted than Arch, which it is based on?
[If the account owns the game - allow user to download and run the game] is a DRM sure… But it’s kind of fair, no?
Valve won’t release the source code and I don’t use it, so it’s hard for me to tell which packages are proprietary and which are not. Steam client for sure is proprietary and it comes with the OS. Arch by default is Free Software (other than proprietary blobs in the kernel) and you can audit what each program does and modify it. With SteamOS you can’t do that, because Valve keeps secrets from you on your own device.
To play any game you have to install and run the proprietary Steam client and be logged in to an account. Even to play singleplayer games. Even if you bought a physical disc. There are stores that don’t do this: gog.com and itch.io. They provide an optional client for convenience, but you can just download a game’s installer from the website and install it on any PC any time you want. In case of Itch the client is Free Software so anyone can see what it does and modify it.
That doesn’t mean you can’t control how it works. Most people don’t need sources of their Linux distros to use them as they want. It would be cool to have the source, but you wouldn’t expect them to have an official maintained repo since they spend much more resources on actual hardware that needs this distro.
Yeah it seems to also be the only thing that is proprietary in SteamOS too.
Are you clueless or what? There are too many ways to do what you want with SteamOS. You can use offline mode, desktop mode, play pirated games in any mode, install any controller software you like. Finally, install another Linux distro on it, or Windows. But people buy Deck because of SteamOS mostly since it creates the intended (and expected) experience.
Wanna know why we aren’t seeing many enthusiasts creating more handheld frontends for platforms like Deck? Yeah, not at all because the platform is locked behind DRM or other bs. But because the best experience most people expect is already available and it becomes better with updates.
You can’t easily make changes to a program without the source code or even check what it does. Most people are not programmers, so others study the code and make the necessary changes for them.
This is not an excuse. What they are doing is unethical. They put themselves in a position of power over their users. Not much different from Microsoft or Apple.
I don’t know if that’s true. But the Linux kernel is proprietary as well (just like the one in Arch) - it contains binary blobs without the source code.
I was explaining to you how DRM works and why it’s wrong, since apparently you have no idea. I don’t know why you are listing features that any popular desktop operating system has (even Windows). SteamOS is still proprietary, which makes it unethical.
If you buy a Windows laptop, you can install any operating system on it too. That doesn’t make Windows ethical.
99% users won’t ever need that. For cases when they do, they can find guides, modify settings or install software that does what they want.
People don’t need an excuse. They play their games and that’s it.
Any distro you download can do this exact thing and you wouldn’t know for a long period, unless you spend enough time to compile the whole thing yourself, compare and research.
I consider myself knowledgeable but you surely chose a wrong example to teach people about DRM. Try some denuvo or eac maybe.
Whatever that means, users don’t care about it. Compared to others, Valve provides a lot more value in most of their solutions. They are hackable just enough to satisfy most enthusiasts.
You could make the same excuse for Windows.
You don’t have to compile to know this. You can find the list of fully free distros here: https://www.gnu.org/distros/free-distros.html . Debian removes those blobs too, but it’s not on that list for other reasons.
That’s DRM too and there are many more examples. Blu-ray also contains DRM. And so do most PC games thanks to Valve. Console games on the other hand usually don’t have DRM when you buy a physical copy.
I know that most people don’t care about their freedom, privacy or security. Most people use Windows. But this doesn’t stop us from trying to build a better world for ourselves and to try to convince others to care.
The distros being removed from this list mostly by requests from maintainers means it’s not actively monitored or researched at all. So by not verifying it you put yourself on a mercy of other people. It will fail, if not already.
That’s because you have to use consoles to even read them. They contain hardware DRM and are far from being ethical.
Am I missing something or you’re thinking that starting with least offenders is a good idea?
What are you talking about? It’s a list made by the Free Software Foundation. What was removed? If some information is incorrect, you should be able to prove it.
I don’t know what hardware DRM means, but they use proprietary software, so you are right that they are unethical. I never said they were.
I don’t know what you mean.